chockfull

Yes, absolutely. You don't need money to purchase a permanent residence, send your children to college, buy a car, live above poverty level. You just need "spiritual money". You don't need health obtained by exercise, good nutrition and proper sleep. You just need "spiritual health" so you can keep turning away at that TWI hamster wheel. I'm sure there's a TWI member right now that needs someone to provide a free truck and labor to move from one apartment complex or rental to the next. You don't need friends, you need "spiritual friends". You know, ones that will shun you if you ever fail to do TWI director's biddings. You don't need family, you need "spiritual family". See above. You don't need a job, you need a "spiritual job". One that pays lots of money and has little demands so your time is free to be consumed by your "spiritual friends and family". You don't need hobbies. You need "spiritual priorities". See above re: hamster wheel. Hobbies are a waste of time. It's so much better accosting people in the mall or at their door. And to circle back around - you don't need money. You just need "spiritual money". Send all the regular stuff to TWI. But then again, why should they need it either? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Got on with my life rather than continuing to spend it on advancing the careers, coffers, and grandiose schemes of these unthankful morons that are in charge of TWI.

I always thought Alfred Edersheim's works were a little better on the life and times of Bible culture. But it seems he put a lot of research effort into it - his books show that.

'scuze me if I barf at some of the ideas the Forehead had about what consisted of 'being especially good to the household'.

I don't recall you mentioning that either. Yes you can simply be someone who left twi but still enjoys aspects of what you learned. That probably is true of everyone on this site to one degree or another. No you don't absolutely have to hate twi and all it's doctrine to be accepted here, not that being accepted here is any great accomplishment or anything. You already have a lot going for you and some good respect. You left in-rez due to your own integrety when you encountered some of the evil we speak of. That's formidable. You already shared some great aspects of that and life as a kiwi in twi that we haven't heard around here. That's awesome too. Don't worry about little disagreements in posts around here. They don't amount to a big deal at all.

Yeah, in this economy, specialization is key over commodity, in specific areas that are favorable under supply and demand economics. If you find the right angle on this combining skills with a niche you actually could wind up doing better. But the trial and error on that are a process. There's actually creative ways on a CV/resume to make a gap look a little less "gap-like" - check with a good head-hunter for suggestions on how to frame experience to show it in a little more "industry-like" example. It's not too off-topic. More like "how to recover from the impact of the crap they did regardless of what they know".

trolling for an emotional response IMO. the key is maintaining composure regardless of the words you use to respond.

Twinky, I know how you feel. But just know that the true God, who we were praying to through all that mess, is faithful to restore the years that the worms have eaten. Unlike many, we've retained our integrity, despite the personal expense. Sometimes we need to change directions, reinvent ourselves in a fashion, change like with careers, social circles and such. But God is there with us to help with guidance, love, inspiration. And there's self-confidence and comfort in rebuilding. In the famous words of Rob Schneider, established many times throughout Adam Sandler movies, "You can do it"

Prayers to God for you dooj. And for the legacy of a good man when so many that we've encountered are not that quality.

I find usually saying less is better. I used to have this paranoia about the whole 'ex-member of a cult' issue. However, contrary to all the BS attitude of TWI, the vast majority of people in the world have never heard of TWI, or if they have know very little about it. Once you start bringing up cult aspects of it, then it draws attention like a train wreck, and the more explaining you have to do, and the less and less most people can relate to it. If you say a lot about it to the well-meaning church members, then they start looking at you like a 'project' that needs 'saving'. Which provides them with a whole other outlet for channeling their energies to distract them from how their life isn't exactly the perfect story. I usually tell people I was in a Christian non-denominational organization that was centered around home Bible studies. I say I did volunteer work for them. Regarding leaving I just say that over time it became not the best fit for me and my family. The in-laws are probably a different story a little, in that you might need to answer a few more detailed questions. I still feel the same above principles apply. I keep things simple, factual, and speak of terms in more common language without ministry jargon. Like instead of saying 'I went Way Disciple' I would say I was on a mission through my church for most of a year. I don't need to be the family 'project' any more than I need to be a church 'project'. And every church has their own drama. The Catholic church is not an exception there by a long shot. With questions like the younger cousin thing I'd probably just say something like 'sometimes over-zealous church people can be kind of mean'. HTH.

Haha - put on the sheep's clothing for a few months so that the sheep don't get spooked by wolf-like behavior. With her, this is just the facade, the front, the sugary sweet, North Carolina drawl, the act. Behind closed doors she plots acts of malicious destruction towards any who dare question her. Is it kinder, gentler up front? Sure. You don't have a lunatic with a microphone and a tape subscription service broadcasting his lunacy. But it's a facade. A counterfeit. Real Christianity is not kinder and gentler up front and vicious behind closed doors. Real Christianity is harmless as doves.

Actually with people like us it's more than that. The roots of this stem in the teachings about 'following the man of God' in Paul's epistles. VPW taught 'the 4 steps down', with the first being turning away from the man of God. They also teach verses in Timothy that people give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and that's why they leave 'the household'. So with scriptural teachings like this, it takes very few outright lies about someone (which TWI leaders are very happy to provide) to trigger the shunning behavior. The problem with all of this is that it really is a system of lies re-inforcing the megalomaniac behavior of the few at the top. And the logic is just beyond retarded. For example, a guy leaves the ministry because the president is committing adultery with his wife. He's the one possessed? Really? Another girl is committing adultery with the president. Her husband commits suicide. She marries another in TWI and remains. But she's not the one influenced by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils? Really? The current BOD chase people out, treat them harshly, play politics, refuse to listen to scripture when confronted with it, frame decisions all around this whole 'following the man of God' concept. And when you look at it rationally, the same scriptures and behavior is found in many extremist cult-like groups. But TWI is the only one right? Really? Because they now enshrine the works of a known drunk, plagiarist, and adulterer? Really? You know one of the things I do appreciate learning from TWI was the advice of Uncle Harry, when he shared that the Word of God is good common horse sense. And when I apply that standard to what I observe, when something starts smelling more like horse $h1t as opposed to sounding like horse sense, it leads me to the conclusion that what is going on there is not the Word of God.

Poly, You know, I don't cringe any more hearing things like that. I don't believe the statements are accurate, but many times people talking about God 'taking someone home' is in more direct need of comfort over accuracy. I've seen a church do water baptisms that are more a membership rite - joining the church. People saying you need to work to keep salvation are at least concerned with living a Christian life and are far better than the TWI examples at high levels that use grace as a license for their vast egos. Gifts of the spirit, people are just unfamiliar with the concept and terms and usually are talking about genetic talent or interests. So the cringe factor is pretty much gone. Now if we get into Bible studies together on these topics, or get into a more deep conversation about scriptures, absolutely I'll present viewpoints and scriptural references. But altogether too often in TWI we used knowledge as an excuse for an elitist Christian bigotry of sorts, called accosting people and correcting them 'witnessing', and acted like a bunch of punks in general.

Yeah, they're probably clueless. Until the return which will be a huge wakeup call. You're not defending them or arguing, just presenting your viewpoint. There's actually room for more than one viewpoint outside of TWI.

To me the scriptures describe them aptly as self deluded as you say. Do they recognize their actions? Since they are the ones deceiving themselves do they recognize that what they are telling themselves are lies? Do they recognize the true depth of what's going on? Another place scripture talks about it is "conscience seared with a hot iron". That would indicate someone is past feeling. There's a work of the flesh in the KJV called "menstealers" - which is more like traders in flesh or slave traders, which they do. I guess to speak about the topic rationally there are couple approaches: 1) Scripturally 2) Psychologically From a phsychological standpoint, if you study the behavior of predators, like serial killers, there is usually a progression involved, where the first evil acts performed there is evidence of a conscience and moral struggle, but later acts are without this. That perspective may apply also.

Founders Hall last I remembered. And most of that artwork is gifts from people over the years. The Founders Room in the auditorium has the wall of people VP plagiarized from mostly, and curio cabinets. And that d@mn mantle piece disassembled from France and re-assembled there. What a colossal waste of time, money, and resources.

Do they know? The answer to me is contained in scriptures, not in analyzing people with narcissistic personality disorders like Q-Tip and the Great Pineapple. The core of the issue goes back to being sons of God. In the NIV, these scriptures highlight this: I John 1: 5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. The subtlety in the actions of the BOD, and especially Frau Q-Tip is central to 1 John 1:8 - this is actually what they themselves have taught as "The Central Deception". Now if you question them directly of course they will say "I don't claim to be without sin". And yet when you examine how they operate that is exactly what they are doing. They use their positions of authority to frame any interaction to be about their authority, not about their actions. They never allow their actions, or the fruit of their lives, to be examined by anyone. Through their authority which they abuse regularly there is a great deal of sin. Yet because of this authority nobody is ever permitted to confront this sin. Every conversation is framed away from their sin - it is ignored. Here's an example. Q-Tip, by public court records, was well aware of the sexual indiscretions of the previous president 5 years before the lawsuit. All the details of that, and the accusations of her playing a part in all of that were hidden away. In reality, all of this should be brought before the household to be handled. The sin, and the fruit of the sin is there. To admit it and get it handled and out in the open is what these verses are talking about. Yet they hide away their actions behind closed doors. They say to the household they are without sin. In interactions with others they say they are without sin. In this example, Rosalie confronted the Corps on not speaking up about this. This is sin. They frame conversations to never examine their fruit, but always to be about someone else. This is sin. This is hard-heartedness. This is evil. In this, the scriptures judge them. They deceive themselves. The truth is not in them. They will eventually answer for their sin - by their fruit they make God out to be a liar, and His Word has no place in their lives. This is the truth of the matter, regardless of whether they are blabbering on about someone else "losing their passion for the truth" or whatever lie they are making up at the time. They lie. They deal in lies. The lies originate within themselves. And lies are opposite of the truth. God honors the truth. People that walk in the truth He talks with, guides, gives inspiration to them so that they can live for Him and honor Him. These are not like that. They construct false honor for themselves, which the fruit of their lives contradicts.

and bitter ..... ? vindictive ..... ?

Great stuff Pax. As for me, I am "eliding the salvific conclusion" of being free of TWI along with you. And as a result need far less of the consolation of the lamenting Psalms day to day than I used to when I was in.

and thus the circle of life is preserved.

All those family relationship scenarios aren't easy to sort out. My family was never in and is ecstatic to have my fellowship back. I know another couple that was out for a long time, then went back because they are grandparents and their kids wouldn't talk to them or let them have access to their grandkids if they didn't. They went back in and now never talk to anybody outside any more, and have sunk right back into delusion land. I mean I can understand choices based on family, but there's like this robotic blindness that sets in all surrounding the concept of "household" in TWI that is just crazy.

Don't worry, pineapple, we can help you out with that.

It's kind of human nature - your two groups are: 1) Those that are really good at lying to themselves 2) Those that aren't. Those that aren't are sublimating their true nature and it has to come out somewhere. Those that are good at lying to themselves will always have a kind of self-loathing below the surface somewhere. They have no ability to come up with a genuine strategy. And the spirit of God has long been gone, so they can't rely upon God for new light - they have to try and imitate something. And out of VP and the Forehead, their only role model is the founder. They explain away all his antics. It's easier to build a shrine to a dead man than to get along with a living one. That's people's nature too - wanting to build images before God. The inner circle has compromised their morals to screw over their fellow man so many times their conscience is completely seared. HQ has always been a place that has been molded around the personality of one person. VP, Forehead, Fugly-Q, and the next one will be no different.

The dominant minority camp usually are those that don't have anything else going on in their life. They clamor and struggle and climb over others for a paid position because otherwise they would be nobodies in menial positions in society (kind of like the Forehead went back to). Like the OT says they are in priest positions for a piece of bread. And as a result they are absolutely dictated by fear. The lock step is an act, and a survival instinct. It's survival politics. With the extreme egos of those in charge as well as the low tolerance for opposing ideas and the high level of control, that's the only way they survive. It's a very diseased organization, with a corporate culture that leads to oblivion. Some of the younger leaders absolutely know this and are wasting their lives trying to hang on long enough for some of the worst to retire. It's a fool's game. At what point does selling out not change you? after 15-20 years of playing the game what makes you think you won't become the game?

ROA - nothing better than to take the only 2 weeks vacation time you have from a job to caravan to Ohio and to spend the time working. TWI is run by free slave labor. And they are not appreciative at all.