chockfull

Cool post bowtwi. Inspired me to look up the 4 different words for forgiveness. I found the one in the Lord's prayer - Matt 6:12 - it maps up to the fourth definition you brought up - "to let go" or "send away". Greek word aphiemi - from "a" and "hiemi" - to send. The detail in the scriptures to me points to the direction that our forgiveness towards the people that have abused us in the past is more in the category of distancing ourselves from the debt/sin as opposed to excusing their behavior and continuing to enable them. All your "it does not mean" seem to be helpful little implementation guidelines, if not exact scripture.

shortfuse, I'm not talking about you or any of us that applied a "Pollyanna" mindset and thought we were doing the will of the Lord. I did that too. I am talking about people who knowingly screw over other people and endeavor to ruin their lives and then walk on like they did nothing wrong. And others who promote that. It's the people who humiliate you in front of your peers, then instruct you to write only positives in your journal. Yes the dichotomy of behaving in the fashion you describe is discouraging. I've done that too. It is psychologically unhealthy. The Bible calls that hypocrisy when it says let your love be without hypocrisy - the mask of the actors, portraying the "positive" face. This type of thing does deep-seated psychological damage. Some become so detached from reality that they can no longer distinguish real positives from real negatives. Some extreme examples we can see of this are women in an abusive relationship, who act like everything is OK. You can only repress emotions for so long. They will surface, and they will affect your mental and emotional health. This is why I continually encourage people to leave that type of an environment. Like they teach you on a plane flight with the oxygen mask, save yourself first, then secure the mask around your loved ones.

I knew somehow this thread could be saved if someone brought bacon into it.

Censoring = dishonesty. People hide things that are inappropriate, not things that are appropriate. People hide evil works, not good. Good works aren't any thing you have to hide.

Twinky, you're all right by me. We've all lost, and all are rebuilding the years the worms have eaten. All we can do is refute the lies, speak up, and improve our lives. That we are prospering in all categories is the best revenge. Then they have to sputter and say but... but... but.... Ultimately, vengeance is mine saith the Lord, and I will repay. People who think they can abuse their brethren and say they know Jesus are in for a rude awakening.

Actually, I think the latest delusions of those in power are just like a lame duck president - the false vision they are leaving some kind of legacy beyond the vomit inducing cr@p their lives have produced.

That was the biggest dumb@$$ excuse for research I ever saw. Huge leaps of logic between Old Testament and New Testament that you could drive a truck through. It was presented in the sense of being "proven research" and a period of time was given for other viewpoints. When other viewpoints were given, people were dropped from the Corps and moved out of their responsibilities. Biggest fr1cken Stalinistic approach to Biblical research ever. R1co has long ago traded his soul for his position, being a corporate shill for a bunch of derelicts. He really should get a life, but his viewpoint has always been a zealot to the utmost extremes beyond anything common sense could reach. Their stance is poetic justice. They have hamstrung themselves from ever reaching an educated middle class with any sense of logic.

Yeah, no sh1t bro. The intimidation tactics of those idiots have backed more good people off than you know. I'm sorry for your personal loss and that your ex traded in her cult status for a much more binding commitment. They intimidate people to keep from someone telling the truth and causing mass exodus in local areas. Who exactly are these j@ck@sses working for who break up marriages anyway? Certainly not God, as that is not Christian behavior.

Or, you could go by Jesus words who taught "by their fruit they are known", and call it a day. :)

Of course that is being intellectually dishonest to split those hairs. This way a leader or some committee somewhere can meet and determine whether something was a "debt" or an "obligation". The words "debt" and "obligation" are synonyms, and there is no real distinction between them. The Rom. 13:8 verse is more accurately translated obligation, as the direct context includes giving honor to whom honor is due, which has zero to do with finances. I know for a fact that they have approved car leasing as kosher. So the interest thing is a little out the window with that fact. An anecdote - I knew someone who would consistently talk to quite a few audiences about "their inheritance". This person gave the impression they wanted their parents to die rather than spending "the inheritance". It was absolutely morbid, and visibly money hungry and a horrible example. They were fellowship coordinators.

Absolutely!!! This is just one of a number of examples where the debt logic in TWI completely falls to pieces. When you rent a home, you sign a lease usually for 1 - 2 years. By TWI's strict definition, if you do not have the entire amount to pay off that rental agreement - the full amount at that moment, then signing a lease is putting yourself in debt. Leases are an obligation for the full amount even if you move. What's the difference between that and a mortgage? NOTHING, except the duration of the agreement. The same BS logic applies to automobiles. Waybots happily be-bop out and lease themselves cars, under the same kind of obligation. But buy a car with a loan? OH, NO!!!! That is debt and sin. They pay more for the use of the capital involved in the depreciating value of the auto. Where it gets even more into hypocrisy and abuse is you have people who are in leadership positions and Corps that actively browbeat others about debt, teach on it consistently - they are required to teach on debt consistently and report back on it, and these individuals THEMSELVES LIVE IN HOUSES WHERE THE MORTGAGE IS HELD BY A RELATIVE!!!! So mommy, daddy, or a brother buys a house, pays the mortgage, and little Corps mini-Napolean lives there while taking advantage of it. What vomit-inducing hypocrisy. They won't actively advertise this, or speak up about debt because if they do eventually they will get axed by Rozilla the Horrible. The whole topic is just one more way TWI can have more control over their Waybots. Never relinquish control of your life to another person. Especially an organization that has questionable morals and has proven not to have the best interests of its own people in mind.

WG, your post is tremendous. All the other ones on this thread are magnificent and awesome, too.

Insightful post, lindyhopper. IMO the jargon and cliches are used by the ruling class absolutely as tools of control, and perpetrated by the masses as the language of non-thinking tools. For the masses, it's a new sense of belonging to have a completely new sanitized language. It makes them feel safe, feel part of something. And yes, absolutely the Corps mock it in private, as it is completely stupid. However, these are the same Corps that can spit out some of the most fascinatingly regurgitating Wayspeak greetings that have ever been read by mankind. They play the game to get by. They also keep repeating the same old external references too. "Death in the Tall Grass". I mean, geez, can't they even update that reference to the movie that was made about that book - "The Ghost and the Darkness", with Val Kilmer? But there is comfort in repetition of the same stupid ideas over and over.

penworks is right. Accurately, Kristin's book is a memoir, not a novel. I wasn't accurately precise about that in my first post. However, I did purchase it, read it, and enjoyed it. It reads with the intrigue of a novel, although by that I am in no way trying to suggest it is fictional. I know far too many of the facts involved to suggest that. I believe it to be 100% non-fictional and 100% factually accurate. It also has the grip of a good novel. I'll probably buy her second memoir she is currently writing as well. In fact, without works such as hers and corroborating stories and evidence, we would really not have a very good picture of TWI at all. Why is that? It is because those in power in TWI have ALWAYS lied and covered up these types of things. They do things in secret, in the dark, behind the scenes. They portray a different public image than what they are really like. Why do they do this? Well, they even teach this themselves about "the adversary" or the devil. The value of the counterfeit increases with its nearness to the genuine. How many followers would TWI have if they accurately told the story of VPW as a flim-flam artist, plagiarist, drunk and womanizing sexual predator? Zero? Those things do not inspire people to follow Christian organizations or leaders. Also, if he was like that and the current group of idiot leaders were raised by him and his successor who was as bad and stupider, what kind of things would that say about them? All this is true, mind you, but TWI is in the business of selling religion. Like politics, they sell an image, not reality. That's why they fight tooth and nail to keep the truth from being told, and to discount it when it is told. With the elitism they teach, the group think, the common values they preach, it is a simple matter to wave their hands over all of Grease Spot and say "they are lying". Actually, no we're not. One of the reasons we are here instead of in TWI is that we aren't very good at lying. We can't cover things up, sweep them under the carpet, play the game. Instead, we have told people the truth. And they have not liked it. So they close their ranks, keep those close to them they can use or who are "profitable to them", all the while telling themselves they are just like the apostles and prophets in the Bible. But they are not. They are false apostles and prophets. And God will expose them in His time.

One of the things that is just terrible for TWI is the advancement of technology. One example of this is modern day cartography. What is cartography, you might ask? Well, it is the art and science of making maps - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography. Well what is so terrible about that, you might ask? The answer is, that with modern day cartography, which feeds into all of the online mapping sites and software availble, makes it really interesting to locate addresses like: 41 Lincoln Ave, Manitou Springs, CO 80829-1800 What is so significant about that address, you might ask? Well, it is the address of Pike's Peak Seminary, where "Dr." Victor Paul Wierwille obtained his doctorate degree in 1948. Well, so what? You might ask. Well, if you look at this location in Google or Bing Maps, you will find some amazing things. LIKE IT IS A HOUSE. YES, A HOUSE. Hmmm, a seminary in a house? Interesting. What else can we find out about this? Well, we can find out more details about this house. http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/41-Lincoln-Ave-Manitou-Springs-CO-80829/13663092_zpid/ If we check out the details, we can find that the house is a 4571 sq. ft. home with 8 bedrooms and 9 bathrooms, built in 1900. It is currently worth $508,000, and was purchased in 2006 for $700,000. Hmm - someone is underwater right now. So what else can we surmise about this house, as applied to VPW's doctorate degree? Certainly it was a correspondance school. VPW did NOT spend any amount of time there, other than traveling out for his graduation in 1948. Details of this can be found in his biography. So most likely, the "professors" in this college lived there, and graded papers that came in through the mail, giving credit for them. Why is all of this important? Because especially now, the current BOD of TWI is "sanitizing" VPW's image and focusing more of the history of the ministry around him, as his successor L. Craig Martindale was "ousted" by the current President, Rosalie Rivenbark, and his ex-wife, Donna (Lombardi) Martindale collaborating together to banish him after his inappropriate sexual exploits. So now they "polish up" the image of VPW, who died in 1985, enshrine it a little, and now they can present the public image of carrying on a "rich tradition of Biblical research". Unfortunately, those who can research the Internet can easily find accounts of the founding President of TWI - Victor Paul Wierwille - VPW's own sexual exploits, as told in the novel "Losing the Way" by Kristen Skedgill. Also found are incidents of his plagiarism. And with maps, now a sketchy educational background as well. In fact, a more accurate picture of VPW would be a flim-flam artist, plagiarist author, and sexual predator who inherited a German family farm and started a ministry in the '70's. Before that, he was a pastor in another denomination, until he could run his own thing. So if you are unaware of the history of The Way International, TWI, as a prospective "Biblical research student", do a little "research" on your own about the quality of the people involved in the organization you are considering joining. The Bible says to lay no other foundation than one on Jesus Christ, and describes the elders of churches as the pillars built upon that foundation. Where you find supposed elders who are built more upon lies, deceit, using other people, sexual predation, plagiarism, false credentials, ego and a pompous attitude, such as you find in TWI, make the right conclusion to your research and continue your search elsewhere for a Christian home for yourself and your family. Thanks, and good day !!!!

like the ministry doesn't look bad with people living in trailers on grounds. if someone died there they would at least have some excitement instead of a bunch of bored robots walking around.

ClayJay, Cool stories. One of the problems IMO is that TWI interferes with what would normally socially be a friendship circle. People develop these, and offer help within them. It's small enough so there is a compensory retribution. But when you have your "family" and "friends" group artificially expanded to include people of many times very questionable character through TWI, then it's inevitable people get taken advantage of all over the place. TWI is notorious for being a highly selfish organization - they care NOTHING for their followers, and LESS THAN NOTHING for their leaders. Only for their pompous holy decisions, trading in human flesh and dictating people move all over the place. They are what the Word terms "menstealers" - slave traders and purveyors in human flesh.

If you've never read the "Passing of the Patriarch" documents, they are on this site here - http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-miscellaneous/passing-of-the-patriarch.html It's a hilarious read of a political cluster **** and Geer's mammoth ego combined. That seems to be a common thread in TWI leadership over the years. A puffed up head beyond all recognition.

Haha - you can take the guy out of the ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of the guy!!!

Actually, I remember how a lot of this evolved. Rosie with the Relevantly Buoffant Rear staked her claim by planting it right next to the head table at lunch. Her table - right there. Donna's family used to all sit there. That's how she wormed her way into being BFF's with Donna (amongst other things like vacations with her, etc.) Then she started pushing to run the Pres. Cabinet Meetings. All the while digging up useful dirt. When the time came, and they dropped the hammer, she traded the dirt info for a VP title. Then after that, the ousting, followed by putting the Okie dooface on probation and making him move. Magically, Donna didn't have to move with her husband - there was no divorce then, and any questions about that were quashed and people asking them were blacklisted and eventually targeted for removal. COO of an increasingly dwindling empire - 80% gone over the VPW / Okie split, then Okie's winning personality drove off even more, then after that whatever is left just decimate that with the controlling politics. Maybe she could write a book - "How to Be A Female Dictator".

What is funnier is apply that statement to VP's literary works. RHST - "I wish you could see that in the original" by JE Stiles.

I totally agree with you and can relate. I've come to the conclusion that whole "status" thing - with nametags, titles, relative importance of assignments, etc. is just a facade for ego and is what Paul talks about in Corinthians "comparing themselves among themselves". The ironic thing was that TWI has a whole culture built around doing just that while having that very verse in one of the Corps retemories!!! I'm sorry I bought into that whole culture of arrogance, and if that attitude I adopted and showed hurt anyone. I first came to that realization with my flesh and blood earthly family. I had acted superior to them for years, but in reality they've lived far more of a genuine Christian life than I did in TWI.

When she was originally instated as President, it was said it was for a short time ~ 5 years for this reason - she was reaching retirement age. Now with her political posturing and power plays of axing any opposing viewpoints, she's well set to be the Strom Thurmond of TWI's leadership meetings. Power into the '90's. The '90's are the new '40's, right? So BOD meetings into the future will consist of making sure Rosie's driver has her there on time, can wake her up at opportune moments in meetings, and can dab the drool off her frock. Isn't that exciting, TWI folks? Isn't that just 'wonderful'?

Here's another bone to pick I have with TWI "itineraries". More recently Rosie the fat cow and minions have implemented a policy where the only traveling they do is behind the cover of silence, and usually to deal with some kind of disciplinary action within the ranks. This has been under her inept reign, and completely in the face of stuff that happened with VPW and even LCM. Compare this to Paul's itineraries in the Bible where he traveled extensively to get the Word out to people, to teach, minister, set up leadership, etc. When was the last f'ing time a leader from TWI HQ EVER went out on an itinerary to teach in a local area? Do the BOD travel to carry "the Word" to local areas? Why not? Aren't they supposed to be "the new dynamic Church in the 21st century?" And yes, visiting a household fellowship in BFE Ohio within a drive of where you live is EXTREMELY WEAK as an answer. Paul suffered shipwrecks, by God. And all you have to do is fly coach? WEAK, INEPT, STUPID. One of the worst leaders ever in TWI history. Just a bunch of laziness, to sit in a lofty tower and "control" schedules rather than making an effort to actually get off your @$$ and help someone, travel out, get some dust on your feet. What exactly is it you draw a salary for anyhow? To review weekly schedules, and hold a phone call about them? Volunteers in your ministry do so much more than your lazy @$$.

You belong to a very wide and rich diverse body of Christ. One that is not hijacked and narrowed by the bigoted perspective of cultists, one that is not limited in power, one that does not place you under false spiritual authority to drain your abilities and hinder your longsuits. Where you belong is where your desires and abilities take you. And that is unlimited in potential. And anyone trying to convince you otherwise to shackle you in slavery under false authority is small in soul and in mind - they only deserve and require your pity. It's time for another Rennaisance.