chockfull

I can appreciate that. I think that TWI is accurately depicted in this re-enactment of Wayne's World - the Suck Cut:

Yes. The pattern seems very similar to Joseph Smith's interaction with the angel Moroni receiving the tablets that founded the LDS religion.

Funny running into old TWI people. Some are human beings and all right. Others are a waste of human life - have the same dumb-@$$ smugness they always had. And TWI leadership is so spiritually blind they cannot see the difference. And most of them are in the second category.

Yep. And supposedly he saw "black hearts" and "white hearts" shown to him by God then would witness to them and they would respond accordingly. I wonder which he saw when he looked in the mirror?

Kinder gentler maybe so. Now they are pre-processed and read from cards. Submitted ahead of time for approval, practiced in a dress rehearsal. And the most boring presentations you'll hear ever. Guaranteed to have zero personality and zero unique content. A complete waste of time, cd's, effort. You get more value out of sleeping those 2 hours, as that is what your brain wants to do anyway listening to them.

ex, I'm glad you keep telling people about this. All the while they are building up a shrine to a dead man in TWI and whitewashing his image because it's easy for them to do this PR wise and legal wise - a dead man can't be charged or sued. In reality people listening to them are just worshipping an idol or image and allowing themselves to be controlled by unreasonable people. So keep telling people. I know you're over the emotional, psychological and spiritual trauma by now, so you telling people is a great public service warning.

My whole take on this is that it is a lot of mental modeling and an attempt to break down into little steps the interaction between an individual and God. Maybe this is because VPW had such a problem SIT for a while - the struggles of that are pretty well documented. I agree that God is not limited like this. There are also stupid corollary type rules like - "if God could speak directly to your mind, He'd have to allow Satan to speak directly to your mind. Then we'd all be lost". Which is complete BS. There is freedom of will involved. I believe God is big enough to know who is seeking His help and can speak to people who are open to be spoken to. Audibly, through thought interaction, through experiences that only people put together - He's the master of crafting such things. There are contradictions in logic all throughout that Great Principle teaching. First, it only seems to be addressing revelation. What about "God works in you to will and do of His good pleasure?" and what they teach in the Adv. Class surrounding that verse as the "impartation" manifestations? So a woman touching the hem of Jesus garment and getting healed - in that there is zero interaction with spirit teaching Jesus mind in the initial healing. Sure - he "felt virtue going out of him". So there was a feeling of power being imparted only - no thought involved. In my opinion God is not limited to stupid little rules like that in interacting with His kids. So you love Him and see where He wants to lead, see where you have goals and desires in life and talk it over. SIT is just part of the prayer stuff. The Great Principle? Try Jesus teaching - love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and your neighbor as yourself. Then you don't have to spend all your time bound up in BS details of the inner functionings of how God works it all out and build up egotistical little mental models that are prone to error.

The Great Principal - you, who have a job, have a cash flow, thus have cash. You can only give what you have, which is cash. Coincidentally, TWI accepts cash. It becomes manifested into a whole lot of ego and stupid rules as it is deposited.

Yeah, those guys started to remind me of the corruption depicted in the Roman Catholic church in the movie "Martin Luther". Gobs of money pouring in to the Vatican, and "excommunications" issued to anyone that dare question their authority or direction by quoting the Bible.

My vote is the project for victims that Eminem and Rihanna did called "Love the Way You Lie"

While some of those concepts are good advice FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO DO ON THEIR OWN, for a ministry and person to interject themselves into another's life to track that along with income and make decisions for another or dictate to another what they should do is not a CHRISTIAN doctrine, it is a DESIRE FOR CONTROL. That is LUST.

So_crates, Nice to meet you. Yeah, I tend to agree with you that the believing = receiving is an overtly simple fallacy of a life principle as opposed to something that is real. Believing = a mental exercise is more what it is in the context of what they are talking about. Or believing is just something that describes the underlying principles of how I make decisions and live my life. It doesn't solve the innate problem of death and taxes for example. Also - food, clothing, shelter, transportation - I think those involve a scramble a lot of times. I mean I guess homeless people have some of those, but most of us struggle in a similar fashion to what you describe in this life.

Newlife, I don't know - I try to relate to God as my father. You know, the advice, the conversation. But I'm in charge of living my life, not Him. A good father wouldn't force a son to herd goats as opposed to being a writer if that's what he wants, right? Sometimes I think the "God is in control" people are using God as a crutch to avoid the responsibilities of living their own life, along with all its rewards and consequences. Or to explain dark or unfair things, which there are in this world. Love God. Life your life. I'm a son, not a robot. So the word "control" doesn't apply to me. It applies to inanimate objects and to control freaks.

Oh absolutely I have seen this, and so have most on this thread. And TWI ABSOLUTELY is a prime example of this type of misuse / abuse. Like a guy with a stick beating a dog, then expecting the dog to forgive and love him. One of the problems IMO with Christian dogma (and I say this being a Christian myself) is that the words of the Bible, of Christ, are taken and magnified to the point of people abandoning all reasonable logic in conjunction with dealing with them. In that people use them as a club to beat on others with them. Which, in and of itself, pretty much negates the whole original intent of scriptures in the first place. And yes, I am aware of all the OT prophets prophecying against Israel. TWI did some good in this respect by teaching some keys to Bible interpretation, where you could do things like actually look at to whom a scripture is addressed, look at some context for meaning, etc. However, TWI did evil in this respect by teaching that God magnified His Word above His name. In other words, extreme Fundamentalist behavior. Whenever you have extreme Fundamentalist behavior it produces IMO a narrow-minded view, and it produces extremeties of other behavior like the people carrying "God Hates America" signs. But that's a scripture you say. Well, take logic and apply. Where is it? In Psalms 138:2. A song, establishing a worshipping and praiseful mindset. And people never wax poetic and exaggerate things in songs, right? Well - look at two verses later in v4. All the kings of the earth shall praise thee when they hear the words of thy mouth. Is that literal? Exaggerated? Oh, maybe you say prophecy for the future. But you're already making a judgement call. Is not magnifying His Word above His name future prophecy too then? My views on Christianity have changed since TWI. I view the Bible as a means to "get to know my Father" and "get to know my Savior", as opposed to some rigid hierarchical scientific formula for life, or all the mathmatical exactness BS. By the way, math isn't always all that exact either - depends on the accuracy of the model you're applying to the real world. Right Ham? It's a pure science, not an applied science. So if I relax a bit, and not be such a mouth breather and so rigid in my viewpoints, then I can actually enjoy the intent like I can getting to know a friend by discussion. IMO getting off my soapbox and back to this discussion, there have been a lot of great points to ponder both scripturally and practically on this thread as it pertains to forgiveness. And many great gems of insights being given by both professed Christians and professed atheists. So whatever your viewpoint, Christian trying to better yourself by following Christ's example, atheist trying to sort out the practicality of human relations with respect to forgiveness, I think the true intent of scriptures when you remove mankind's stupidity from their interpretation is to help all involved live a better life.

I like this practical advice!!!

Awesome to hear from Ted Ferrell and others. To consolidate, here are the complete lyrics (to our best reconstruction and recollection) for those of us who no longer have Stevie Kay's Love Child album: Props to socks for supplying the corrected Chorus: Oh The Price He Paid For Me by Larry Panarello and Dean Ellenwood Performed by Stevie Kay on the album Love Child Verse I spent most of my life without a dime to my name while my friends all around me made their fortune and fame I felt my life wasn't worth the pains of my birth But Oh the price He paid for me Chorus In my eyes I was nothing to no one But in God's eyes I reigned supreme. Then I found I was worth more than all the treasures on earth, To God, I'm worth everything. Verse when my ship was sailing in it went down off the coast my friends all ran out when I needed them most I felt my life was nothing til god made it something But oh the price he paid for me Chorus Verse Now I'm standing today where all the winners have lost And I'm counting my blessings while they're counting the cost you think your life isn't worth the pains of your birth but oh the price he paid for you Chorus End

Yeah, she's mistaken. But hey, I'm glad she preserved the lyrics on the verses. And she probably did write the chorus's. :)

Clay, I think you're close - I found someone doing a rendition of this on YouTube - the lyrics I think are pretty accurate on the verses, but wrong on the chorus - it also sounds different than I remember though. I think your lyrics on the chorus are accurate in lines 1,2, and 4, but I can't remember line 3. Lyrics I spent most of my life without a dime to my name while friends all around me made fortune and fame I felt my life wasn't worth the pains of my birth oh the price He paid for me when my ship was sailing in it went down off the coast my friends all ran out when I needed them most I felt my life was nothing til god made it something oh the price he paid for me chorus1 oh the price he paid for me there upon the cross at calvary he died for my sins. In my heart I let him in oh the price he paid for me so now I'm standing today where all the winners have lost I'm counting the blessings, they're counting the cost you think your life isn't worth the pains of your birth but oh the price he paid for you chorus2 oh the price he paid for you he died on the cross for you too he died for your sins in your heart please let him in? Oh the price he paid for you chorus1 oh the price he paid for you oh the price he paid...for us! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vHYmzNfP8E It's a really awesome song.

I agree with your therapist. We can't carry abusers with us on our back our whole lives. They're too heavy. We should dump them off and move on, and that can't be conditional upon their realization or response. Conditions just continues to give them power over us. IMO that's why I just leave the justice side of it to God. It's way too complicated for me to figure out. Well, it makes you think. I mean, couldn't God just forgive Satan, get him healed up, and then there would be no more evil? Why not? And does this apply to people too?

You have some penetrating logic on this topic brainfixed, that certainly makes me rethink things. The tough part applying this is in the context of how does someone recover from an abusive situation, relationship, or environment? You have to forgive the abuser at least somewhat for your own health, to make your own self better. But for justice sake and for others you can't excuse the unrepentant abuser and in that sense can't renew them to a healed state. It's kind of a moral dilemma. Jesus didn't forgive the devil, did he, for orchestrating his death? Just people. Also, it's a matter of opinion on whether he prayed for forgiveness for all involved with his death, or just the pawns in the game carrying it out as opposed to the ruling class Judeans who orchestrated it. The balance between mercy and justice is one that tempts a person to play God. But we are unworthy and unqualified. We can't even save ourselves. All we can say is that God is just, and God is merciful to the repentant, of which I am trying to be.

Oak, I'm a Christian and am personally inspired by scriptures. But I just wanted to say that your approach to this is great and is a common sense balance that can filter out a lot of weird and wacky scripture interpretation. +100.

This sounds like a great blessing and open door, Bow. One thing that has struck me most recently is how much more effective that a Christian local church can be in a local community, as they actually have real ties there. Buildings, taxes, etc. TWI has absolutely nothing to offer in this capacity. Their local ministers are traveling vagabonds, that most likely will be moved within the next 5 years. They own no property as it's against their rules. They own no buildings, but meetings are held at free or cheap facilities. They don't even commit to renting a facility for a long period of time like many of the starter churches do in areas. They have no investment in their local communities. They really have no ministry leadership making any effort to visit them and teach, etc. All they do is sit on a rural farm, act like hotshots, put out boring teaching tapes, and make up new rules to restrict the Christian further. Your average Christian church in a local community is a far better vehicle of reaching out to people about Christ than TWI ever will be. All they offer is an egotistical elitist attitude, and a bunch of rules.

Yes, very true. These things become difficult when someone is usurping God's authority and placing themselves as the authority over other people. I found this to be the case in TWI. "Speaking up" is something that I have always done, however, many avoid it for fear of consequences. When you have people in authority that take retribution against those who speak up, who carry grudges, who will issue excommunications at the drop of a hat, then this becomes a precarious precipice to negotiate. I agree with your conclusion. The most the scriptures encourage us is to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". I'm always thankful to recollect that doves have no gall bladder as other mammals do. They have no physical capacity for storing bile and bitter acidic compounds. Wise as serpents has no direct analogy like that, but the representation is that we are not fooled by the beguiling tactics of the old serpent, the devil. We are not to be naieve as Christians and fooled by those who usurp God's authority for their own. Yes it's a great discussion and good food for thought. We enjoy the scriptures as intended for us, despite how some have twisted them for their own ends. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, and to all at the Cafe!!!!

Twinky, You are right in what you are sharing. I personally have a little cringe reaction when hearing that verse in conjunction with forgiveness teachings, not because it is inaccurate or out of context, but simply because I have heard that particular verse used extensively by top TWI leadership to try to convince people to continue to endure the abuse they were doling out, or to sweep evil under the carpet. How did this work? Well, for example - VPW / LCM were sexual predators, but some would quote this verse and tell you just to focuse on that which is honorable, just, pure, lovely, of good report. As opposed to focusing on what those guys were doing. If all do this, then there is no accountability and leaders can do what they wish. I have also heard this used to excuse a myriad of lesser types of abuses as well. But besides that point, I don't want to belittle the truth of what you are sharing. To me there is a good concept in all of this, and one that is helpful. My memories that I choose to hold on to are constructed of exactly those Phil. 4:8 things. Otherwise I would be tempted to be unhappy with my life and choices.

Garth, I have a more similar gut feel to you on this in that all the general "forgiveness" talk seems to veer towards enabling abusers. But I couldn't get around the standard in the Lord's prayer that God forgives us with the same standard we forgive others. I think you have to really be careful about defining your terms using the english word "forgiveness" or you really get off the mark. I agree. So in the Lord's prayer - forgive only means to send away or distance yourself from the abuse, as opposed to keeping yourself attached to it opening up an avenue for bitterness to grow and consume your life. In exact terms it does not mean erasing the sin or debt of others, as God Himself only has the power to do this. Good point - when people specifically come to you and ask forgiveness, you can specifically grant it to them, show mercy, and all benefit. This is a great thing.