chockfull

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6VtI1i89yk

That job may end up to be among the few honorable efforts in the dude's whole life.

You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus Prime and that W@ll@c3 clown mentioned in the recent Hirschfeld thread. Wayne was the research guy behind most of the "far out" new stuff that was taught on the 2nd PFAL / FNC class Okus taught - well, N3ssle too. Rosie Rivitus Prime absolutely hated Wayne, as she does all people in some of his categories - men, and people with an IQ above 100 who don't prostrate themselves in front of her. He got treated very heavy-handed with all the schedule BS, really ridden hard. Then he got kicked out and put on probation. So it's just natural some of these guys when they've been treated as poorly as TWI treats about 95% of their people, to pick up and go across the street and start another church. To me, CFFM basically IS TWI, except they bill themselves as being more loving and caring. I mean, if you took all the BS garbage that TWI has been spewing in the last decade about being a "kinder, gentler ministry" and looked at it from a realistic perspective, that probably is CFFM for the most part. CFFM probably is the kinder gentler TWI. I guess it's a viable option for some, and with TWI becoming progressively more hard and stupid you may see a greater gravitation there over to CFFM. The TWI BOD made CFFM, and continue to make it viable. I hope as those guys grow they remember the lessons they learned from how they were treated and never do the same. Is there a problem with it? Well, here you have my soapbox kicking in here, so caveats and disclaimers all out front and all that. IMO, Jesus said you can't put new wine in old wineskins. And that is THE #1 MAIN PROBLEM with all these offshoots. These guys get treated poorly, get ....ed, and their first knee-jerk reaction is to go out there on a government website and start up their own 501-c or whatever corporation. WTF? Why is that necessary? They really aren't able to detach themselves from the doctrine of TWI and move on. They repeat the past. I mean look at the fiasco with JL and STF. Those guys managed to self-destruct within 10 years or so. IMO the main problem we have today with Christianity isn't the concepts, the teachings, the fellowships. It's what enters in when people try to make a profession out of it. 501-c regulates the flow of money. Why do you need a flow of money? One person can give a gift to another person without that. You can live Christian lives in your home, among families, in a community. When $$$ comes in, that's when you start to see motives and behavior change. You start to see man building up endless empires unto himself, organizations to "serve". And when you bring God into the mixture of all that it just is really problematic. Take CFFM for instance. Look at their most recent newsletter. You've got Kevin and an article witnessing to a gal on a plane, helping her. Good general stuff, but does it really need to be broadcast out across the nations? I mean I don't feel the need to blog about my plane conversations. Did the people in Acts do that? Circulate newsletters writing about their great escapades in witnessing? Well - Luke recorded them, but that's a 3rd person perspective (1st in places), but it's different. I'm kind of picking on Kevin - but he's got a job to do - the ABS pays his salary, so he has to crank out an article. And one about his efforts to expand the group is pretty standard. Then in CFFM's newsletter you have all the "Zone Happenings". OK. WTF is a "Zone"? One guy writes - "Are You in the Zone? If not, let us help you get there?". I mean, is this normal Christian language? WTF is a "Zone"? Am I playing defense on basketball here? You dig a little deeper and you find out that basically the "Zones" are equivalent to TWI's "Regions". You have Zone coordinators, and State coordinators or contacts. Already, we have people behaving like clowns and focusing on and highlighting their positions within CFFM over any Christian teachings or Bible verses. Where did this start? Well, at the top of course. You have the guys who picked up shop and are relatively reasonable guys starting to "ordain" other people. And have annual planning meetings. This grew into setting up a leadership structure. When you do that in many ways it values one person over another. Especially the higher up you go. At a local "fellowship" type level, it's just a person opening their home up for meetings. So there's a limit to how big the head can get. I mean - all these guys, they really want to live the book of Acts in our day and time? Why don't they look at it's greatest example - Paul. He basically had a craft and worked part time volunteer mostly. Sometimes people gave him money or put him up, but he didn't draw a salary. Oh but you say Jerusalem they had a leadership structure and full-time people. Yeah, they did - mostly to handle all the converts on Pentecost. However, human nature scrwd that one up too within Paul's lifetime, and those leaders got egotistical hard and legalistic. To me the lessons of the NT and Acts in general point me towards living Christianity in my home and with a small circle of friends and away from organized religion. I've had enough of God mixed in with human nature in an organized sense, and the only stomach I have recently for human nature to deal with is that of my own family. Small and contained, I can deal with it. All right, chockfull will get off the soapbox now. .02 out.

To me this issue presents somewhat of an ethical or moral dilemma. It is not solvable via equation like a mathmatics equation. What are the elements? Forgiveness 1. We need to forgive others as we have been forgiven. 2. We need to not allow bitterness towards others have a place to grow in our hearts. Mercy 1. Without mercy none of us would be alive or have a relationship with God. 2. We can show others God's mercy as we have opportunity or power. Justice 1. God is a just God 2. Those who break God's laws with impunity and unrepentence will be brought to justice by the just God. 3. Justice in this life can be healing for victims. Duty 1. There are wolves in sheep's clothing. There is a duty to warn others of them. 2. There is a duty to witness our own personal deliverance which includes this topic. To me this encapsulates all of the elements I have encountered around the topic of forgiveness. It is very easy to get caught up in one or more of these 4 topics and focus on that to the exclusion of the others. However, life isn't clean. I propose that God has all of these things so that we can walk balanced through our thoughts and experiences related to them.

I think I remember at least one point in Corpse training where they had a book on the recommended reading list "Competant to Counsel". However, there was never any discussion around it or anything. They may have some "practical" sessions on it added in to the training more recently. What does this mean? Virtually nothing. What is the training or education required to be even an elementary school counselor? Minimum 4 year degree that has jr/sr level course work in that field. Most of the time people in that position have masters degrees in either education, psychology, or the like. After a lot of years in, we got to the point where we knew we did not have sufficient background to be handling the things we did. Situations like severe alchoholism, sexual abuse, domestic violence. We would at least try there to find out resources locally to refer people to - places that did have the proper background. I mean you watch shows on TV like "Intervention". Those scenarios are put together by experts. They have people with education, credentials, experience handling them. And they have money to be able to set up a scenario to help people out beyond the people's means if they choose it. Only in TWI do you have the combination of arrogance and incompetance that is deadly. That is what leads to all the "blame the victim" mentality.

You know, in the military, or in the corporate world, many times people of this caliber would be peeling potatoes for decades. Only in TWI is there an environment where it floats up to the top like that.

Speaking of muddy water, .... Now I can listen to that while drinking.

Is that because the answer was probably "YES!" ?? I mean I don't think you, I, or the rest of the peanut gallery around here struggles with those types of thoughts.

Dude, I mean I get where you are coming from. From my perspective I forgave the old dead lecher for his erroring ways, and the stooge stand-in for his - both relatively a non issue as they didn't really do any of that to me or people close to me. Then I forgave all the wicked and unreasonable idiots who did do things to impact me and mine. That was a little more difficult as there is always personal baggage in those scenarios. But the upshot was I'm a lot happier to have suffered and to now be free than I would be to not have suffered and still be enslaved by them. I guess that's the verse "all things work together for good for them who love the Lord". But at this point now going back over and over this stuff again just brings it back to my memory, which until now was remarkably clear from all this stuff. I still have to call the old lecher a lecher, and the stooge a stooge, and the hag a hag, and the middle management of which I was a part of a bunch of brainwashed zealots. I guess that is part of speaking the truth about things. Shoot, I even forgive you for continuing to beat on this horse which has not shown any signs of life for quite some time now.

I agree that indoctrination, monitoring, and containment were a larger part of the outcomes of these. In general, the concept isn't a bad one - most learning studies show that class participation of some sort helps retention over a one way info dump. So it's not really just the "release groups" that were the bad thing here. It was more the overall mindset and culture of TWI surrounding it. With the immorality at the top, and teachings like "a suggestion of a general is tantamount to a commmand", and a bunch of middle management zealots, you have quite a recipe for disaster.

For that matter if Rosie and Donna with their "whoring around" were put on probation then maybe there would be less clueless idiots in high places today. But I guess the point being is that you can't store new wine in old wineskins. Neither can you build a new moral ministry out of an old immoral one.

You know this is a side thought, but speaking of sharks and lawyers, I wonder how much money the right honorable Louis Columbo makes every year off of all of the TWI follower's ABS? Between Rosalie, her paranoia, and the ridiculously stupid blunders that occur in that type of oppressive Machiavellian leadership culture, I bet that it costs your common sheeple in TWI a pretty penny every year. Care to guess? $250/hr x how many billable hours average in a year?

sky, My views on all this supposed fast track to "spiritual maturity" is that it's a perfect example of a common local colloquialism: "Going to hell in a handbasket".

Kit, no offense on all your forgiveness stuff, but honestly I've had just about enough of those professing to "take the place of the Lord in the world". They are an obnoxious lot. I'd rather just myself be a simple Christian person and let the Lord be Lord without anyone needing to take His place.

To a reasonably intelligent group of leadership, nothing. It is a legal matter. However, to your friendly neighborhood egotistical control freak BOD and butt-smooching local leadership, it represents a highly unique opportunity to be able to pretend to see through their blindness to be spiritually vigilant by issuing "mark and avoid" edicts out over anybody that had any semblance of remote connection to this. Did you know them? Know they were scamming? BAM. Did you babysit their dog? BAM. Are you their parents and did they lie to you? BAM. In a group of low intelligence and high paranoia, a scapegoat is needed.

Yea, they have an accumulation of something, that's for sure. I'm sure all the prayers for them involve not finding Ex-Lax in their coffee accidentally. That would be a disaster with all of that accumulation.

I am glad nobody gave the TWI BOD firearms though. By now they would all have the same limp from shooting themselves in the foot. This is a perfect example of when ego meets incompetance.

Yeah, apparently you can push people too far. From what I hear apparantly one of the local sleazebucket former state coordinator is now trying to start his own nonprofit ministry. Another John Lynn Jr. When will all the sheep wake up and stop being fleeced?

Hopefully soon. You have at least the majority of one whole state leaving TWI based upon their handling of this.

My viewpoint differs. I think that a lack of morals is man-made. Here's a workable definition: Morals - adj. - of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong There are principled men and women outside of Christianity whose lives can stand on their own before a just judge. Similarly there are unprincipled men and women inside Christianity whose lives cannot stand on their own before a just judge. However, to deny God upon either premise is a fool's game.

I remember entering into a conversation with a psychologist by profession, and discussing TWI specifically and extreme fundamentalist Christian organizations as a corollary. When the topic swung around to secrecy, he made an interesting point. He said that people do not hide that which is appropriate, they hide that which is inappropriate. If what a bunch of egotistical hypocrites like the BOD do in their little meetings were appropriate, then there would be no reason to hide what goes on. However, what they do is inappropriate. That is the foundation and origin of their secrecy. What Jesus said about that was that the sins they commit in secret will be shouted on the rooftops.

The way to present sex honestly is within the confines of a family. That means yes, fathers and mothers have the spiritual responsibility to have some honest conversations with their kids. The mind picture I get of an old lecher VPW teaching a class that includes all sorts of deviant behavior to both parents and children is representative of one of the major things wrong with TWI from the beginning. A pastor having sex with his flock represents depravity and immorality, not "freedom and honesty". Honestly, if you run into a pastor who wants you to sit in a class while he teaches you the slang words for male/female genatalia, get a clue and run the other way. You can learn slang terms from buddies on a street corner or in a bar or frat party somewhere. If it's coming from your pastor something is genuinely screwed up there.

Me too. Shoot me a PM if you want. I know you from back in the day.

This is a sad tale. However, in this you are doing the same thing you accuse GSC posters of. You have no direct knowledge that anything on this site contributed towards the ex wife's accusation, confrontation, and divorce other than to say "the ex wife had to have read about it". Of course false accusations are possible anywhere - here, or even at the local fellowship. I know of 2 or 3 situations while I was in TWI where people were being falsely accused and the result could have the potential to split up a married couple - I quashed the accusations. But it's very real - the gossipping that happens within far exceeds the tales made up reported here. More people in TWI have been damaged by false accusers - as the whole environment promotes it. Digging up dirt on your brother makes you look more spiritual in the eyes of TWI. The sad part about this is that people who are in TWI can take something like this and use it to completely discount a large number of accurate accounts of abuse at the hands of TWI, broadly stroking over this site and posters as liars and someone with a grudge. It's interesting you pick the verse on talebearers - the slander that I have seen among the leadership and yes top leadership of TWI far exceeds anything I've seen on this site. And yet there is a blindness in TWI where you would never consider that a leader telling you "so and so is possessed", "so and so loves money more than the Word", "so and so hates TWI" is them being a talebearer, yet somehow that blindness allows for victims telling of their abuse to be labeled "talebearers". So to cut through that type of blindness, I'd ask - "were the Allens and January Barnes talebearers?" They have proven settlements against the abuse of TWI. And the pattern was proven enough that for every case like that there are others that never wanted the public exposure to prove that. The good we are doing here is exposing frauds like those running TWI. It's a scriptural commandment "be not deceived", such as in Matt. 7:22. This site and others like it facilitate that spiritual education and obedience to scripture with respect to abusive groups and cults. Collateral damage is a military term, not a spiritual term. Used as the latter, it is a moral and ethical excuse for performing evil. That is wrong, regardless of who does it. This site doesn't primarily exist to inject merriness into hearts. It exists to educate on staying away from cults. If you do that, you will maintain enough control over your life to inject a whole lot more merriness into your heart than you would if you lived under the thumb of "wicked and unreasonable men", such as those in leadership in TWI.

This is the single characteristic that is the most damaging cult behavior.