chockfull

Sure you have the right to dispute. IMO it wasn't just you that was responsible for the topic sidetrack and derail. It was the whole argument in general which consisted of a bunch of all of us. Well I will agree with you that without a dissenting opinion many times interest drops off faster. I think that's more generally true of any topic on any forum though. Whether that is "damage control" or just simple human nature and interaction I'll leave up to you to decide. I don't think GSC has any officially supported "doctrine". Most here do oppose TWI. It is a unique place in that, where people who actually oppose TWI can do so in an open manner. Try that in your fellowship. See how long that goes without people getting "rattled". Personally, I'm pretty much past getting rattled about a whole lot, although the immorality and heavy handed actions of TWI leaders has me morally disgusted to the point of wanting to make others aware of it. I'm not that interested in persuading people to concur with me. I post here to be able to speak freely, which I was deprived of in TWI for years for fear of reprisal, as the vast majority of leaders in TWI are. Sure this place has gravitated to be anti TWI. I think you're being a bit dramatic about the melting comment. People here have a pretty deep exposure to things in TWI and know how they operate and have been personally affected by it. Or, I suppose you could believe what the mainstream line of thinking within TWI is, that this place is full of devil spirits, to stay off here, and that people are all lying. You know, where the real "damage control" is happening.

Sure wow did good stuff for people. I had a great time. But some of the reason for the high dropout rates were how quickly people were doing it. Taking a foundational class in June, to the ROA in August, raising their money at the ROA and going out for a year. That's why they changed the program to what it is today. And they added a whole lot of rules. But the wayd program can be beneficial too. It's not necessarily the programs that are the problem as it is the morals of those at the top running them. What VPW said in the way living in love and how he actually behaved in his personal life and in interactions offer up quite a contradiction to say the least. My opinion differs. To take a young person in their teens or just out away from their family, immerse them in TWI in their homes and all their activities, produces a higher level of indoctrination. Can that be good for people and can they exist in that beneficially? Sure, there's a lot good basic people can do to shield those in their fellowships from the problems higher up. Many of us did that as well. But at some point you have to pay the piper, one way or another. IMO a lot of the older music was better than the whitewashed soulless drivel they are cranking out now - no wonder it's popular with the youth. No, I think both others and you were uncomfortable with the 6 or 7 vs. 1 developments of the other thread. You had some good points regarding CFFM at the beginning though.

I agree. I was not a proponent of TWI speak even when in the organization. I always have been more of a free thinking person. That's just me. Yes they exist and are described in scriptures. The problem is that inside of TWI the lack of integrity at the top leadership levels has rendered their ministries null and void where they are blind to them even in their own midst. So instead they point to a person who disagrees with them and label them as "possessed", or "influenced", and issue edicts and slander about them. VPW did this and there are accounts on this site about it, as did LCM, and as do the current group of leaders. You may be insulated from that in your little local fellowship but consider it a public service we are making you aware of it. Don't be so quick to generically label all of them. I do understand that it can be quite overwhelming to hold the sole opinion on a thread and have 6 or 7 others disagreeing with you at once.

Nice distinction WordWolf.

Yes, it is high time someone did them the favor of putting them in a position of "operating the principle" of finding a real job. One in which you are required to provide service or produce goods in exchange for pay.

Yes - I absolutely remember this. And looking back now it seems so ludicrous. Supposedly TWI is a "service organization". So if it owes nobody anything including any level of service, what exactly is its reason for existence? Right - no reason. Actually, if you go even deeper and examine this, it really is a telling factor in the overall attitude and philosophy of Rosalie as TWI's leader. Jesus said "the greatest leader is the greatest servant". Rosalie says "we owe you nothing", which would include service. Jesus worked tirelessly to save mankind. Rosalie sits on her fat @$$ and does as little as possible and owes nobody anything. She "delegates" and has everybody else do her work. She doesn't even answer her own mail! I always thought it was hilarious how on the quarterly letter they send you itemizing your ABS contributions they whine about how the IRS requires them to state that "no tangible goods or service was provided" by TWI or something to that effect. Well, stop whining. The IRS is just requiring you to state the same thing your leader does. Is that how it should be? People in TWI? When will you grow a clue? "If the ship goes down as way corps I go down with it" - I spent way too many years going down with that ship. The problem with that is that it takes on water too slow, always looking like it may not sink while the water level keeps rising. And they have captains who are too stupid to avoid running the ship onto rocks. Since we all learned in many forums that "the Word is good common horse sense", I have a better suggestion regarding ships. "If you are on a ship that is going down because the captain is too stupid to avoid running it onto rocks, stage a mutiny and make that captain walk the plank". See - I even maintained the same nautical figures of speech - AAARRRGGGGGH!!

while there may be some parallels, the term "witnessing and undershepherding" is TWIspeak. Paul didn't teach "witnessing and undershepherding classes". It might be valuable to rid yourself of all the TWIspeak before you can truly think on your own in a genuine fashion. I don't view raising children as "witnessing and undershepherding". There are many other choice terms that I can use describing it, depending on the day ;) While everybody's "common sense" is based upon a belief system, I think what excathedra was getting at was that as Jesus stated, it's much easier to know someone by the fruit they produce, as opposed to the words they speak. VPW was a prime example of that. All the "devil spirits" talk is simply TWI's indoctrinated method to quickly implement "shunning" people. It certainly is the quickest method that a TWI leader can get unsuspecting underlings to not consider the logic of someone's argument. And usually it is a great indication that the argument has merit and is in opposition to the leader. In all the responses to you there are varying degrees of understanding your intention. I wouldn't call that "crippled logic". I would use that as an indication that you need to explain yourself a little more clearly and to more clearly understand where someone else is coming from.

Hey johniam. No offense or anything, but could we move this whole discussion about you being misrepresented and needing to defend yourself over to the "My Personal Soapbox" thread? This thread here I think people were trying to keep somewhat focused on discussing CFFM. However, as of the last few pages, the topic has turned away from that and more to focus on you. And you keep posting here which prolongs that. Not that I'm against talking with you, I would just rather not completely dilute the content of this thread to do so. Can you please answer over on that other thread? Thanks for understanding. I'll actually copy your response over and answer there.

There are givers, there are takers, and there are leeches. TWI's doctrines and practices train people up to be the last.

Yes, John is indeed "a man after his own two faces". Which one are you going to see? I think if Jesus himself would return to his earthly body and walk around conversing with TWI leadership, they wouldn't know him. No, IMO their path is clear and one they have chosen for themselves. Dwindling membership and little Napoleans trying to cling to smaller and smaller armies until they eventually all disappear. Geisha, that is a wonderful and beautiful thought. For all that to happen, God would somehow have to cut through years and generations of arrogance, high mindedness, patterns of people magnifying their thoughts against those of God. I more view TWI now as the story of Lot - if there be any good men in the city spare it. And if there are get out now. But of course, with God, nothing is impossible. :)

Then they must not believe what they were taught by their idol VPW that "fear ruins more men's ministries than anything else". Yeah, of course she is way too stubborn to do anything like that. Wait, stubbornness isn't a fruit of the spirit, humility is? That woman is about the farthest thing away from humble you can get. She will never leave. If they want a change they need to vote one. Just like she did with her crew to oust LCM and send him packing. Voted by the BOT at the time, signed. They can do the same to her.

That's pretty good Thomas. All it's missing is a little Drambuie. Wait, a lot of Drambuie.

Actually, I don't think it's even required for her to resign. All that would be required is that there is some form of testacles left on any of the males still on the BOD. I'm sure the paranoia of that happening has kept the old bat pretty handy with her edicts, assignment changes, slander, and overall reign of terror. When will any of them wake up to the fact that it is all hot air and she can only do to them what they allow? All it would take is one majority vote and then Rosie and Donna could ride off into the sunset and retire together in Florida or somewhere, kind of like Janet & Sharon did who lived in Rosie's house.

So the ironic part of this is that the middle class suckers in TWI who send in their ABS faithfully are usually above the income levels for their kids to qualify for Pell Grants. They also have a greater tax burden. They are paying twice - tax + ABS. So the suckers pay double for all the Staff people's kids to go to college debt free, while their own children need to incur debt to go to college. Rico again? "I believe that God provided welfare so believers wouldn't have to go in debt". Close, Rico, close. God must have provided welfare so YOUR kids can go to college without debt. However, that doesn't seem to extend to the abundant sharing minions. Donna's kids got their education, right? Doesn't Leah have a Masters degree? Isn't it nice that you can conveniently explain away a God that helps those who help themselves to others' $$$ ? And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the breeding ground that produces stories like Adam Hirschfeld. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is the type of thing you see in dictatorial regimes in 3rd world countries. For example, in Iran, the leaders in government lavish in luxury, while the average citizen dies in a plane crash because of lack of money to do routine maintenance on Boeing airplanes. Or the rice to feed the poor in Africa shared from abundant countries rotting on loading docks because the heavy-handedness of the regime preventing it from getting to where it is needed. Yes, by their fruits ye shall know them.

Where all the other good little cultist offspring's tuition came from? ABS + Pell Grants (i.e. your tithe + your taxes). And look what a great education too! He learned how to continue to bilk people out of money. Now's a great time for OldSkool's Rico quote: "I believe that God provided welfare so believers wouldn't have to go in debt".

Wow - that was sufficiently condescending. With skills and an attitude like that, you're wasting your time here. You could be climbing the ranks of TWI, smooching the right booties, abusing the right underlings. Or maybe you already are. But since you're straining at gnats here, I'll just point out that the word "delegated" is nowhere to be found anywhere near that verse in the Bible. The difference between "delegated" and "given" is a wide difference, and the choice of that substitution really shows a legalistic and hierarchy-of-power slant in interpretation. At any rate, the point I was making about the above is a common misconception. You have egotistical tyrants all promoting themselves and building their little man-made political hierarchies all in the name of "reconciling men unto God". The relationship between God and man is a personal one through Jesus Christ. If you bring a man to know God through Jesus Christ it really has nothing to do with bringing them to a church, a denomination, a fellowship. People read into that all the time. That's what I was referring to as a confusion of destination. That verse does not hold the intent to have Christians 2000 years later using it as justification to build their own Towers of Babel.

Because the Roman legions collecting taxes at the time just would tremble in fear at the thought of an IRS auditor with his pencil protectors. :blink:

I'm not in this situation, but of course they will do damage control. But the point is, if they have proven themselves spiritually blind, hard of heart, and heavy of hand, and have brought damage to people's lives, then they themselves have proven themselves unworthy for people to acknowledge their spiritual authority over them. You don't get two chances with people's lives. Talk to the hand. You know the honest thing for TWI to do in this situation is that if Rosie scrwd up the situation that badly by her poor leadership, to have her publicly apologize and then have her go "on probation" so she can recover her dumb @$$ self.

I don't know - info is 3rd hand. He probably is. But he is a dip sh1t. Which has "promotable" written all over it for TWI. Someone who can obey without question and pass the abuse down the chain of command. When you look at who it is TWI promotes, that's the easiest indication of the lack of health of the organization. Oh and does "Region Coordinator" now mean he has like what, 15 people he's in charge of now? Too many chiefs, too few Indians. The chiefs abuse, the Indians leave, and now you have only a few people left leading themselves. To say they have over-inflated titles is an understatement.

What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there. I would contend that VP got 100,000 people to hear the gospel of VP. When you examine the personal lives of VP and Jesus Christ you see in VP an egotistical cult leader with a motor coach, expensive toys, a plane, who sexually abused people and verbally abused others. With Jesus Christ you see humility. Looking at the fruit makes the gospel of each much easier to ascertain.

I just have thought that it's not wise to put new wine in old wineskins.

Probably not the community as they don't have the money for that kind of thing, but there have been definite reports of them helping people in their organization. As the structure builds up and gets bigger that kind of thing usually dies out but you never know.

I've heard similar things, like thirdhand. P@tti called up Rosie. Rosie got directly involved and basically issued an edict stating that anyone involved was no longer welcome at a fellowship. "Involved" meant anyone knowing anything about it. The local state coordinator D@ve L1pp0ld handled things with the same stupid heavy-handedness, and now basically the D3t3r$ and one other fellowship are the only ones left in Colorado still with TWI besides L1pp0ld. M@rk W@ll@c3 went and filed for 501-c status and most likely will try to smooth talk his way into being another offshoot coordinator with as much influence as he can garner.

I remember John too, Paw. He was compassionate even when in TWI. I was sad when he died.

And yet one of the most compelling things about Christianity is that we are all broken. We all need a Savior.