chockfull

The "salt covenant" is nothing more or less than a tool of spiritual abuse in the hands of false prophets and teachers.

Why these dumb@$$es need so much explanation to conclude that a single monagamous sexual relationship in a marriage is the standard for Christian behavior is completely beyond me.

This person is a d0uch3bag. And they are not catching on. They have not "faced their codependance", as a major part of any codependence is actually recognizing that whoever is the one causing that problem in your life is the one with the problem, not you. This person attacking someone else who they say is "codependant" and excusing the crimes of the one causing the problem is highly delusional, and is evidence that they are lying when they say they've faced their codependence. Tell them they need to go watch episodes of "Intervention" until they figure out which one of the people in the circle is actually the one with the problem. Exc, with you, honestly the actions you have taken to call a morally devoid sexual predator for what he was, to stand up for yourself, and to tell your story here and to whoever else you do is firsthand evidence of you having already taken steps to overcome any codependence factors of your past. I mean, the definition of codependency - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency - includes recognizing that the problem also exists because of a network of enablers. In AA they teach these enablers how to cut off the addict. The greatest group of enablers for VPW and the twofold children of hell that succeeded him were those in leadership around him who did nothing to prevent his actions. Attacking victims is the largest single act of enablement there is. And TWI has a history of doing that. With Okus Dooface, they sat victims down to "counsel" them and show them that they themselves had a problem "wanting something" out of their sexual relationships with the large forehead. There, TWI was being enablers. They did this largely to prevent victims from suing them, and they succeeded. Many of these victims enjoy the best paid staff positions now, traded in bribery for their silence. That is evil. That is enablement. That is the definition of codependant. You in direct opposition to those examples are the definition of freedom. Even if j@ck@$$es try to make you feel differently sometimes.

Totally agree. For the Wayfers, especially those on staff...

I agree G. I know the same types of people. To me it reminds me of a new type of option for keeping your pets in your yard - the electronic fence. You put a shock collar on your dog and anytime it strays close to the fence it gets a little zap. The poor animal has no clue if it would just rush though the shock zone it would be free. It works well enough that they don't try it though.

Looking back on Eden and snakes and all that the most fricken hilarious thing from my perspective now is that the greatness of TWI's "Biblical Research" that culminated in all of that teaching seems to be an artist's depiction on the ceiling of a Catholic church. I mean what kind of moron buys the fact that your scripture commentary is based upon the divine scholarship of Michaelangelo? To me it just highlights how TWI's "Biblical Research" really occurred. The top morons come to a conclusion. Then they seek for supporting evidence of that conclusion inside and outside the Bible. Man directing God again.

Rozilla I believe forced the Region Coords at one point to take a salt covenant with her enforcing their unquestioning loyalty. In an interesting parallel, in Greek mythology Medusa had the mythical power to turn anyone into stone who gazed at her.

What is completely so bizarre to me about this is that nobody talked about Jesus Christ like this. I mean, you know, they did their prescribed teachings on Resurrection Sunday, and in teaching some of the JCOP and JCPS stuff. But in real life, everyone was so into the MOG worship. This in TWI is basically policy. Why do you need pictures up in the Limb offices of the BOD as mandated policy? Why do you need a wallet sized photo of RFR? Why do you need to put the BOD at the top of every "lift list" in the ministry. In a genuine Christian setting, the focus goes not onto the egotistical guy at the top of the org chain, but transfers that focus to the Savior of mankind. Genuine Christianity is not a "top-down" organization. It is a "bottom up" organization, where the greatest leader is the greatest servant. That is simply not possible in TWI.

And thus, those that are evil that are in power remain in power. The money collected every week goes to them to continue to support their evil.

way too far into it.

This incident, paired with a thread on the value of "Corps Teachings", reminds me of a neat little prank initiated by the late Donnie Fugit. During a Corps night teaching, a fellow partipant sitting next to Donnie fell asleep. After a certain period of time in the middle of the teaching, Donnie elbows the guy in the ribs and whispers loudly in his ear, "Stand! Speak in Tongues, and Interpret!" The poor unsuspecting victim finds himself partially awake and regaining consciousness at the same time he is standing up all alone and loudly speaking in tongues and interpreting right in the middle of Corps night. Now there's some value!!! Only Donnie's mind could twist up into something that perfect in all categories of entertainment value!!!

Cults like TWI have an insidious approach. They prey upon the youth, love bomb them until they can get them in a class to indoctrinate, get them in lockstep loyaly, then steal years from them. Down the road TWI leaders make such statements as "the ministry owes people nothing, but people owe the ministry everything because of the Word they were taught". The lockstep loyalty no matter what they want is a one way street. They have no such loyalty for members. I remember talking to one gentleman who most everyone would know who was in TWI. He told me "I gave TWI the best years of my life. Now they've cast me aside." That is the norm, not an exception. Simple statistics show this. What percentage of the people who have gone through TWI's leadership training program, the Way Corps, continue to associate with TWI? If overall numbers are less than 5%, what does that tell you?

Yeah, you're probably right about the trolling...

I think one of the positives about the information age is that global boundaries are removed. I read of people who want to serve volunteering to go over to Japan and contribute in areas of expertise - medical care, etc. No longer is it the case where someone can isolate you from the world's information and perspective. While a commitment to an individual group who has local impact is a good thing, it also is a good thing to have a broader perspective.

At least you wrote "seemed to be". That's because your only experience is with what is whitewashed and presented to the public. In reality, it was just another heavy-handed political organization, with those currying favor and climbing over others for their esteemed positions and titles. VP didn't hold people more accountable to more Word - to do that he would have had to live more Word. He didn't live it himself. That house was built upon sand. There are two psychological defense mechanisms in play here. One is rationalization. You rationalize sinful behavior. Then there is projection. You project your state onto others. Both are attempts by the mind to justify it's own state and existence. They are based in the fantasy world, not reality. That is why coming out of this state involves a "waking up" period. Many here have experienced this. You have not. TWI tries to keep people from this "waking up" period by keeping their sins and horrible behavior invisible, behind closed doors, covered. Their sins will be exposed and shouted from the rooftops, as Jesus promised. My agenda isn't to deconstruct TWI in any way I can. It is simply to tell the truth, and that involves bringing out into the open that which they sweep under the carpet, hide, deny, and outright lie about. Why should leaders in a Christian organization need to lie to survive? If their habit is lying, how do you trust them when they try to sell you truth? Everybody here is worn, and their heart has been torn. Torn by wolves in sheep's clothing. Torn by false prophets and apostles turning the worship due God into their own adolation and agenda. Jesus is a savior for the worn and torn. He needs no group to fulfill this calling. The most fickle people in the world are the amoral in positions of power, such as those at the top of twi. It would take full-time effort to continue to convince them of your loyalty, or be cast aside. That's because there is a great deal of paranoia inherent in the combination of power and amorality. What about you? Do you need a savior? Or are you just another miserable comforter, who come a dime to a dozen?

What I think is that your existence and testimony of your experiences with Wierwille have so confronted the false image that a deluded cult member has of him that it rocks their world down to the foundations. And that they can't deal with it. So to justify things in their mind they have to resort to attacking the messenger in an underhanded way. Their old wineskins have just burst at the seams.

When I think of "standing in the gap" and TWI together in the same sentence, for some reason the only image that comes to mind is this guys teeth:

And herein lies the arrogant and condescending attitude infused by the cult you are in. The underlying attitude of moral superiority. The need to enlighten the unenlightened around you. Until you learn that you need to be delivered from this, you are nothing more than another @$$ accosting people in the mall and talking at them. That is about as far from genuine "witnessing" as you can get, and Jesus Christ is ashamed of that behavior. The conflict here is that you can't differentiate between Jesus and VP. PFAL is not the Word of God. Neither is any other fundamental teaching class. It is a person putting together a class to teach their doctrinal approach to Christianity. PFAL was man-made. By a man whose fruit when you examine it stunk to high heaven. And Jesus himself told us to know people by their fruit. But all of that logic falls on deaf ears with you because you don't want to get it. You have a few warm fuzzies from a local person who provides you with a shelter in their home fellowship who themselves have never challenged anything from TWI leaders so they are left alone. So when it boils down to it your feelings are your guarantee for truth to you. The fruit of "the teacher" contradicts his words. Jesus words are clear here - Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. Yet you ignore Jesus words but would rather prop up VPW's words to be "legitimate Christian teaching" and "the word of God". I'll stick with Jesus and allow VP's fruit to speak for itself. This is not a belief system, an agenda, opinions, or observations. It is a simple logical conclusion based upon evidence and scripture. One that escapes you. Jesus himself, when speaking on this topic, for some reason did not employ the old folks saying "don't throw the baby out with the bath water". His words were Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. And also Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. In this he encouraged his followers to not try to recover the old inflexible corrupt broken systems, but to put all of the good things related to God in Christ in new wineskins. He also warned how just a little bit of the corrupt influence of the Pharisees and Sadducees could change all of it. So there you have it. You said it doesn't matter WHO speaks God's Word, as long as it's God's Word. Jesus spoke it. I quoted it. What you do with it is up to you. Yes I believe the immutable things of God in Christ are still good, including eternal life, incorruptible seed, peace, grace, mercy, love, Christian brothers and sisters. I claim them all, and live them personally. I just notice the distinction between those things and the fruit of TWI. So what further do you need to teach me?

Me too Kit.

Well, then, question asked and answered. Before you get all off on your little victim speech about the Salem witch hunts too far and all, the reason I asked the question is because previously when excathedra mentioned her story and background, you made some callous comment regarding how everyone has been hurt including yourself and made a comparison to large-scale world tragedies. So it wasn't that far of a stretch. So, rather than accuse you directly of it, I asked the question. And you answered it wasn't you. Good enough - I'm not accusing you of lying or anything. But, feel free to get as much mileage as you can out of it. Actually, since you brought up moral superiority, I thought I'd mention to you that you come off that way to me with your attitudes and posts. I see a lot of questions directed at you that go ignored, and instead what comes back sounds like quotes from PFAL. So let me ask you directly - why do you refuse to answer questions and instead feel the need to teach everyone around here? Do you think we don't know scriptures, aren't Christian, or what? What are your conclusions regarding the people on GSC? There's plenty of people on here that were in TWI longer than yourself, did more in the organization, took more classes, taught more, etc.

Remember Luke 18:16-17 ? But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. In reality, that's all you need to know about faith and/or believing. You don't need 5 kinds of faith, 4 cameras, 3 positive confessions, 2 turtle doves or a partridge in a pear tree. Faith / believing begins and ends with Jesus Christ. The sooner you figure that out, the sooner you will be able to figure out all of the false prophets trying to put themselves in His place.

johniam is taking up riding lessons?

I can think of one thing to add: http://www.zillow.com/homes/41-Lincoln-Manitou-Springs-CO_rb/

You are missing the point people are making in differentiating the "law of believing" with a Christ- based faith. You are also missing the point of the scripture section. Jesus praised the centurion for the latter. The guy, due to his military background and understanding of how authority works, was able to completely trust in the authority of Jesus Christ as a representative of God to heal his servant. That was what Jesus did not see in Israel, and that was the catalyst to the healing. It was not the centurion's mastery of the mental gymnastics of applying mind pictures like a camera. That is more like "The Secret". The Secret and the law of believing is a counterfeit. It just states to focus on "really, really convincing yourself you really, really want something, and if you really really want it bad enough you'll get it". Jesus confronts this type of mentality on the sermon on the mount - asking who among you can add a cubit to their stature? To simplify it for you, the key to the power is Jesus Christ, not the guy's mental gymnastics. a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I know people with calamity right now that say their issues were their own and not the ministry's. While taking accountability for your life and fixing things is admirable, if these same people don't come to the accurate realization of what a cult did to impact their lives, then they are fools ripe for the picking of the next flim-flam artist that comes along. Nobody made grace cheaper than VPW with his plagiarism, sexual sins, and standing himself up to be "The Teacher" in place of Jesus Christ.

The shoe that fits here is called ad hominem size 13, and you're wearing it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem And actually, as far as the validity of the claim there, it's pretty far off base. The biggest buttkissers in TWI are those courting favor. In other words, those who hold the highest positions kiss the most bootie, except for the female Pope figure at the top today, or Okus Doofus or the Veepster in the past. In fact, it would be a really accurate claim to say that one could make a pretty good career in TWI out of smooching the bootie of the Pres. Many have done that, and continue to do that.