chockfull

sky, I think you are absolutely right with the direction you are going here. When you think about psychological trauma, a lot of times people may say "oh but it was their choice to allow themselves to be put there". But what people don't realize is that this kind of trauma is a predator's game. There is a sickness in an adult that abuses a young child, who doesn't have the defenses to protect themself. This same sickness is in cult leaders who behave like VP did. And VP who followed. And RFR and those surrounding her who play the politics. Now a young child doesn't have a choice. But how much older than young children were many who got involved with TWI? A young man or woman growing up in today's time many times does not emotionally mature as fast as 100 years ago, or on the frontier, or in Bible times. These older men and women who subject them to their sickness they have within themselves, that causes trauma. That trauma is real and tangible. We recognize it in our soldiers, who go over to fight in Iraq / Afghanistan for a year or two removed from reality - some suffer physical trauma, others PTSD in the emotional side of it. It takes understanding this trauma, and a focused effort, and a lot of times direct help to get over things like this nature. Trauma physically changes people physically - many times their bodies are not the same after. It is the same psychologically with emotions and the intellect. Many of us have been changed by this experience. It can take years to overcome the emotions, the rejection, the learned helplessness. Now I don't mean to come off like we're all completely damaged goods and looney tunes or anything. Of course the predators would love to label it that way, as it enables them in their evil. But it's real. It has to be dealt with. A spade has to be called a spade. That's part of the healing process. I'm glad that at least around here we can talk about it.

This is the brand of psychology known as "Cognitive Behaviorism". It has its advantages and disadvantages, but can be helpful in overcoming a hurtful past. However, forcing it on someone else is another story... The difference here that is important to highlight is that fire and brimstone preachers attach the consequence to not accepting Jesus as Savior. Cults such as TWI attach the consequence to leaving the group. The latter is much more of a mind control scenario through fear tactics and group think. Legally there is a greater barrier wrapped up in religious freedom than there is in scientific standards when it comes to cult behavior.

Oh yes. Plenty of Corps graduation photos recently where the number of "chiefs" in the photo was far greater than the number of "indians". And a standard practice with herr Rupp3 in the USA is to require permission from the trunk office before removing someone from the rolls. And historically, they count people who like came to one event in the last year. Understanding the system, it's beneficial for people to protect the numbers because it ensures their position. One region guy I knew used to only remove people from rosters one time a year, and that was just after the placements moves. All for show. Actual numbers? Far less than reported.

I agree - that doesn't dilute Christ's orignal purpose in message - an invitation to all. Jesus in all of his teachings did present a paradox. On one hand he was asking those without sin to throw the first stone at the prostitute. On the other he was asking a rich ruler to give up all his wealth to follow him, and teaching that the path is narrow. Of course, mankind is the problem with this, and inevitably finds ways to screw it up. From the false "Christian" just belonging to groups to use others and self gratify, to the false "Christian organization" ruling with a heavy hand, straining at gnats and swallowing camels and kicking people out, the flesh is indeed weak.

That certainly didn't last long. Just until the first direct question to him: LCMARTINDALE Did you sleep with my wife at advanced class.. what was it.. 1993? No accusations, but it would answer a few questions.. from @kb8pgw - John Tallman. If it wasn't an April fools day joke, then I guess it was more than he was willing to deal with.

I think the bottom and top of the screen ads are just ads. If you click on them once in a while I think they may contribute towards defraying the cost of this site. Paw can confirm.

From a brand of coffee. http://www.chockfullonuts.com Now that's ..... heavenly ......

Happy Easter, Kit + all!! Love the Max Lucado piece - I've actually only previously read his children's books, which are awesome!!!

Neither. You're God's daughter. The daughter of our Heavenly Father, who is big enough and wise enough to look past the arms, be they upraised in the air or folded in the lap, who cares less about the water splashed than about what it means to those being splashed, and who sees the praise in our hearts whether or not expressed by the tongue in our language or any other. A Father whose love reaches out across the divide, and who will bring all His children unto Him in the future with perfectly renewed minds to live powered by the love He showed us when He forgave our sins and allowed us to be born again in His son's name.

So outside of the BS ego based teachings surrounding the pagan nature of the Easter celebration, I wanted to wish all at GSC a Happy Easter!!! The one day you can partake of the offerings of the fertility gods by eating chocolate, dying eggs, hiding and discovering them with young ones, take in a play at the local megalochurch with the talented cast of hundreds, and at the same time celebrate the single greatest act of spiritual victory God performed over the devil in raising His Son from the dead!!!! Happy Easter Everyone!!!

The only thing that man learns from history is that mankind is incapable of learning from history. Why exactly is it that one man designated the Messiah, the Savior of all mankind, whose very sacrifice rent in two the veil to the Temple unifying generations of division between Jew and Gentile, who ate with saint and sinner alike, who reasoned with the most educated in the scriptures as a young boy yet taught simple fishermen to be more than they could dream, who forgave prostitutes, who ate to his last meal with a traitor who would turn him over to be killed, has inspired followers who do nothing but form little groups to magnify their own ego and exclude one another based upon their vain comparisons and exclusions? Man has the inevitable propensity to consider his neighbor lower than himself. This is why Christians, who desperately need the body of Christ, really don't understand it and continually try to manufacture their own approximation which inevitably ends up a Frankenstein creation without eyes, ears or a heart. The only thing that man learns from history is that mankind is incapable of learning from history.

But but but if it's God in Christ IN you, then it's still just a solo, isn't it? (in best Church Lady voice) Or do we realllllyyyyyy haavvvvveee...... Another Jeeeesssuuusssssss??????????? I'll tell you OS, looking at that image from where I'm sitting right now, I wonder if there ever is another tract of land that started out as a good wholesome German farm raising corn, etc. that has ever produced near the amount of horse manure that this one has.

Nice expo WW. When you strip away all the non-essential information, propoganda, BS, I agree with you - those base motives really explain it all. And this motivation did not end with VPW - LCM, RFR all operate/d in the exact same fashion. 1) save money 2) cement / prove loyalty to a person (not even the org) 3) Personal lusts, including the lust for power.

double post strikes again.

What's kind of interesting about this is you can see VPW's MO. That statement of course has zero level of accuracy from a logical perspective. However, from a perspective of motivating people to do hitchhiking that already trust you, there is no higher value. This is VPW hyping an aspect of the program. The pattern is that VPW used all sorts of minute Biblical investigation logic in PFAL to hook people. Of course there were numerous errors, documented well by John Juedes, highlighted by his own research team who noted the many liberties he took with original languages. But the point of PFAL was indoctrination. Hours upon hours of this content piled upon the poor unsuspecting young person with idealogical values. It's information overload - all the "4 Crucified", "Peter's Denials", "What Day did JC Die?", etc. "Paul's Thorn in the Flesh". What's the purpose of all those minutae teachings? To get the indoctrinee to question traditional scripture interpretation. To get them to think that all their previous teachers really didn't know the Bible, really didn't study the Bible. Thus, instead of trusting them, you trust VP. All of this intermixed with the "love bombing" tactic of the twigs/fellowships, where they really turn up the niceness to the new people to get them through "the class". They are not riding the new people, making them turn in schedules, harassing them to witness like JW's, violating personal boundaries with so-called "counseling" sessions - they are "love bombing" them, or what they term "undershepherding". The term "undershepherding" in and of itself is one of the only tender, merciful, loving topics found in TWI. There are no "spiritual overseers" in "undershepherding", no "commitment" teachings, etc. It's all niceties, the front of the "love bombing". Then, once a person is "hooked", and now views all other Christianity as inferior, not up to par with Biblical studies, not even able to put together physical facts about Jesus life from the Bible so therefore completely unable to put together the spiritual significance, now the hype train begins. It's all about the next program, the next level of commitment to the organization, your WOW / Way Disciple, your Corps, your position and climbing the ladder. With the hype train, that's why people will believe they can learn as much from God hitchhiking as studying Genesis. Or why there is a spiritual significance to Rosalie taking her sailboat out on Lake St. Mary's, or Craig's sports analogies and dancing in tights. I mean sure, there is an aspect of learning to practically apply scriptures that can be inherent in most physical activities in life. Sure, in your personal Christian walk you can "ask God" and be open to learning things in whatever situation or routine you are in. But these people take advantage of that, and it is so convenient for them. See, rather than having to pay someone to transport students between Ohio and New Mexico or Colorado, they can just make them hitchhike. But you didn't see VPW "learning more hitchhiking than studying Genesis" himself, did you? No, he flew his planes, or drove his motorcoach that get's 2 miles to the gallon with paid staff as his personal servant. They are a bunch of hypocrites, I tell you.

And here I always thought it was the Yankees.

Sorry - double post. So I'll include all the cool little devil icons on this one... :evildenk: :evilshades: :evildenk: TWI :doh: :doh:

TWI wouldn't know a devil spirit if it jumped up and bit them on the @$$, or moved into their double-wide on grounds. To TWI "devil spirits" are basically words they use to produce a conducive environment for their fear tactics. To TWI "devil spirits" are what people have when they have an intelligent different opinion than their Director. It reminds me of watching the old Martin Luther film where the threat of "excommunication" was always wielded as a weapon. Fear is the tool of self-aggrandizing paper dictators. You don't want "devil spirits"??? Then "obey your overseer". Overseer - there's another one - don't get me started. It's not a biblical word, but the closest they can get to "overlord". They secretly dream of being Darth Vader. You really want to cause devil spirits pain? Extend your middle finger, wave it in the general direction of New Knoxville, tear up that check you were going to drop in the horn, and stay home on Sunday and watch football. Then you can watch physical pain and cause spiritual pain all while sitting on your couch eating chips and salsa with garlic and onions.

Tomatos, Onions, Garlic, Jalapenos, Cilantro, and lemon juice. Possibly some avocados. That's salsa. Remove all the good stuff and it's just uncooked Oklahoma spaghetti sauce.

I mean no offense on this thread, but "Christianity in a nutshell" yes, no, not sure, brief explanation? Dude, that question is for the drive thru at a McDonalds.

IMO on Maslow's pyramid there, TWI usurps the top 3 tiers - Self Actualization, Esteem, and Love/Belonging. Love/Belonging - The sense of love/belonging is completely tied to the group over time, and steps are ensured that compliance with TWI is tied to all friendships, "family" is replaced by the spiritual "household", and love/intimacy is within the group. TWI "ministers" even work to split up marriages where one of the couple is "less committed" to the group. Esteem - Any of this is completely dicatated by the leader's treatment of people - if you are in absolute compliance, you are in good graces. If you question anything, think on your own and express it, and definitely if you contradict any leader, they attack your esteem, and use bullying tactics to affect the respect you have from others, even to the extent of isolating you from the group. Self-Actualization - this is completely replaced with "Group-Actualization". Morality is subservient to the group. There is no self-actualization, only group-think. Maslow's pyramid is a great representation of the type of damage that can happen psychologically to people when subjecting themselves to a dangerous all-encompassing cult like TWI. A healthy person functions on all layers of the pyramid. A cult member has the group take over control basically of the top three, and spends most of their existence in the "Safety" layer which is completely dependant on TWI leadership. The great thing about it is that you don't have to be subject to that kind of control. At any given time, you can step back and say "No more", take back over the control of the higher functioning levels of life you have given up, and move forward productively.

The "mission" has evolved into turning out "creeps".

Interesting. From Hayes "For the Record" page on his blog. Apparantly he is getting some negative publicity due to his name being associated in some ways with TWI. This appears to be what is behind his request here...

Awesome!!! Gilligan's Island to the tune of Amazing Grace absolutely must be tested out!!! Don't worry, John, I'll leave your name out of it Right. And the arrogant followers of TWI always can improve upon the Bible, as it's too negative.

Numbers is a great show. FYI the math on there is reality based. I'm familiar with a company that employs about 20 PhD Mathmaticians, and they do consulting work for the TV show - basically helping to integrate real math into the story lines, and reviewing for accuracy.