chockfull

Agreed. With each new level there is a new loss of control. AC grad? There goes owning a house. Or a newer vehicle, as the only kosher loan is a lease. Fellowship coordinator? No debt, plus now you get one extra meeting a week listening to the only outlet the next higher egomaniac on the tree has. Corps? People deciding whether you have to move on a yearly basis. Clergy? Forget about having any independant thoughts - anything vocalized contrary to the BOD will get you run out on a rail. Stand on your own? What a joke! The Way Ministry has NEVER stood on its own. It's pillaged followers of other denominations since preception. VP's research has NEVER stood on its own. He plagiarized richly from other sources. Stole the class from BG Leonard. Stole the holy spirit teachings from JE Stiles.

Good discussion. Of course any discourse on "like" is a compare and contrast exercise - there will be elements of similarity as well as differences. All make good points about both of those. More recently it's just struck my fancy at the duality of the organization - the current teachings centering again on the outreach aspects - each one win one, yet the overall dynamics of the group being very seperatist. I'm sure the case could be made that has been true all along, except for the "love bombing" of new members. Be very nice to the new people until they take the class, then gradually control more and more of their lives.

I've begun to suspect that the reason the stories are all so old was plausible deniability. They may never have happened back then either.

The screaming thread got me thinking. TWI leaders, who are supposed to be the greatest examples of the doctrine they teach, are among the poorest. Did any of you experience double standards between what TWI leadership enforced on everyone else and how they lived? Discuss.

This brings up an interesting point that I'll start another thread on - duality between what they say and what they do - double standards for leaders in TWI.

More recently I've noticed TWI's functioning being more reclusive. They have chased out over 90% of their people with heavy-handed oppressive leadership tactics, and perform this evil behind closed doors so they can polish the public image. The Amish live in colonies trying to preserve a time past - in the 1800's. They have their values. They call outsiders "the English" - a derogatory cultic term. They shun members for violations. They basically function in their own seperate little society that is pretty far removed from the real world. Is TWI really any different?

Looking back on this from my perspective now, I think that all the screaming and yelling in many cases was a cover for ineptitude. For example, a leader doesn't have the background or education to help people in a certain category of counseling, just yell at them and tell them to get it together. Not enough numbers for your ego? Scream a little. A class isn't selling itself? All that takes is having the microphone and a little tirade. And all the propoganda in the current bunch of dimwits on the BOD regarding a "kinder, gentler ministry"? It's a lie. They still curse, and still yell. They just do it behind closed doors, and put on a different face for the public. Or even worse, like the "Fox". Smile to someone's face, character assassinate behind their back.

Good observations, Pat. In looking back, TWI seems to be a whole lot more about indoctrination to follow a personality or personalities in the organization as opposed to genuine learning of scriptures, following Jesus by example and relationship, or other healthy endeavors. There is a lust for control in their actions and motives.

+100

This. It's amazing talking to innies lately how self-delusional they are. They get into categories and they just have complete made-up fantasies and cliches going on that are far removed from reality - especially regarding their leadership. What's even more amazing is that the epistle of 1 John - which TWI teaches as "the fellowship epistle" highlights all of this behavior perfectly. When it boils down to it we have people deceiving themselves, about sin, about corrupt practices in their leadership and organizations, and about much of life in general. I'm no Biblical expert, but to me removing the blinders about all this is how God intends people to live to be in fellowship with Him, to have a relationship with him. These fake plastic Christians are no more friends of God than they are to each other.

The same tired tripe that has been used by countless egomaniac TWI leadership to justify their lack of control over their tongue.

Excellent insight. More and more it's very apparant that this is a man-made organization operating man-made principles that just happen to be selling God. The personal gain is at the top of the organization - benefit was to VP, and currently the BOD. I mean, is that how the examples in Acts that we based our whole "twig" thing out of worked? Did Peter and the other apostles teach the Jerusalem crew sales techniques so they could be sent all over the world to recruit? Did Paul teach people sales in his travels? Yes, VP was building his little young starry-eyed sales force - that was the WOW experience, the Corps experience. It was of little concern the risk to the individual during either of those things. Take a young person out of their environment, out of their normal support systems like family and friends, and move them to a place you aren't going to tell them until the week before. That's isolation. That sets up control. Then keep moving them around for the rest of their lives. With each new place people move, they are completely dependant upon the organizational structure that TWI sets up. It's a world-wide sales force built upon slave trading.

At least it measures up to the elephant poop portion of it.

Max Lucado is an excellent quote here. My views on healing more recently have been prayer combined with the best medical help possible, and a healthy blend of not allowing it to become all-encompassing if possible. There are so many situations and variations though that it is just different for every situation. I have friends as a couple where the guy just finished up his 3rd brain surgery removing cancer. All I can do for them is pray, and offer a kind word and company when I can.

Amen to that. This is because pretty much any healing within TWI is kind of like that movie "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin in it. The boy got healed in spite of the charlatans surrounding him.

You're funny. On one side you want the right divided Word to be absolute truth. But on the other if people get it muddied you don't want it to be false doctrine. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry. It doesn't work that way.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that chosen profession. I'm just saying something is driving the guy to not be satisfied with it. I'm not judging the guy, but Jesus did teach us that you know people by their fruit. I find it ironic that so many of these top off-shoots or cult leaders when you look at their home lives and the fruit there it is pretty rotten. I'm missing your point here. I Cor. 15:4,5 doesn't record Jesus words at all. So what are you trying to say Jesus was saying there? In all your attempts at exact TWI "harmony of the gospel" type timelines, ascribing words to Jesus that are not recorded seems to be quite a leap of logic.

Did someone say he had a job in something like route sales stocking magazine racks or something like that? Sometimes that's the problem - the qualifications to do something else would require them to take too much of not only a cut in pay but a cut in ego due to perceived position in society or something.

Sometimes it's just the kids themselves who have musical talent and form bands and do music. Taste in music across generations changes, and many times the youth adopts musical taste to help establish their own identity seperate from their parents. All part of a growing up process. I talked to one modern Christian band who grew up with a father as a pastor in a certain denomination that outlawed any musical instruments besides a piano or organ as hymn accompaniment. These kids had tremendous musical talent and were completely stifled under those rules. They formed a band and became popular, all the while struggling against the edicts of the denomination. Eventually they got the opportunity to audition for the head of the denomination. They were so excited. The man was so obtuse in his views he completely shut them down and said "you will never play in any of my churches". Their spirit was broken. Eventually they decided that if they weren't allowed to do this they would play in other people's churches, and have made a career out of doing so. Very inspiring young people to me!

She's a great one to be talking about having their life "contamintated". Look at these people's home lives. Marriages in ruins, kids not wanting anything to do with them, strange "close friend" girl relationships, selling their soul to positions of power. There's a verse that says "study to be quiet and do your own business". I think these people should shut up and spend their efforts fixing their own miserable lives rather than sweeping them under the carpet, setting themselves up to be some spiritual "great one", and criticizing and condemning others. Do you think Jesus Christ in his resurrected body might have a few things to say about that at the return or awards stand or wherever? (Not to stir up controversy over Biblical interpretation of end times). Do these people really think they are fooling God? Or are they just continually lying to themselves? Who would want to wake up and look in the mirror knowing you were doing that? Same thing with JL. Dude, you have 2 marriages now in your wake, as well as 2 ministries. All FAIL. Don't you think rather than adopting a Charlie Sheen "winning" public front and starting another ministry you ought to get real and give it a rest? Why wouldn't he? The only reason I can think of is he loves to be in the limelight. He loves the attention, and couldn't stomach doing some profession without it.

Just think of what a little healthy fear of cults could have done for us....

One thing I'm recalling now that's really funny about this... I remember even when IN TWI, we used to joke around about this section and change it - we would say "you know what killed that little boy? It was the bumper on the car going down the street at 45 mph"... Now we never made any kind of stink about it, but I think subconsciously that was our brain refusing to accept the ridiculousness of the LOB. Thinking back on it I really do believe there were a lot of things I didn't accept at face value. This is probably a good thing, and probably protected my brain from being filled with hogwash. As far as specifically what JL is doing here - he is setting himself up a really nice straw man to knock down. If you buy that the scarecrow is real, then you might buy his logic. But in reality, that straw man is every bit as real as the $13 bill.

I know, right? That has to be the stupidest thing ever, visiting people's houses and them having picture frames just ready to insert the cheap 4x6 of the smiling BODummies into it, just so they could appear to be a little more in favor than the next person. I remember one dumb@$$ specifically showing people pictures of personal time with Rosalie like they were the most prized possession. And we used to give the Catholics $h1t for carrying around medalions with saints on them? For putting up pictures of saints? Next thing you know they'll be calling the picture sessions of the BODummies the "Beautification of the BOD".

john, have you lost the capacity for compassion through your cult involvement or were you just always that way?

JL is a counterfeit $13 bill. He used to be a $3 bill, but that got incremented after 2 crash and burn ministry attempts.