chockfull

Actually IMO he is playing devil's advocate (just a phrase people) around here sorting things out for himself. Many of us have gone through similar cycles, although possibly not as prolifically as johniam. I don't mind it - it spurs people to think, write, state their opinions and conclusions. All healthy in a free speech environment. Try that in TWI and see how long you last before being tossed out.

Liability insurance for the BOD: ~$150,000 per year.

Oh absolutely. The height of hypocrisy is some of these fellowship coordinators, and people with high positions like region coordinators that have a relative that carries their mortgage and then to hear them teach about how debt is wrong and how they support the ministry's debt policy and watch them argue with and condemn others for having mortgages saying they are not as committed. Obviously they have never read in Proverbs about not being a surety for your neighbor. Oh, but that doesn't apply to them using their relatives in this fashion. Hypocrisy. Pharisee behavior. Disgusting. Actually a study of the Pharisees pretty much shows you how TWI leadership behaves.

IMO Rosalie's goals are to limit the field to a small group of people able to be controlled and to cover the cost of the staff needed to support them. And with the headquarters it's to be able to survive without any field money coming in. In other words her two goals are: 1) Control 2) Preserving the riches made in previous generations to live off of for her, her girlfriend and compliant minions

Actually you are presenting two choices as the only ones, which is false. It's not the devil, not WordWolf, it's you summarizing and limiting the choices to two. IMO what is closer to the truth is that VPW's Tulsa story was a genuine one to a point. He was seeking genuine experiences in the gifts/manifestations - that's why he went to BG Leonard to learn and went to one of Oral Roberts meetings. He faked the languages on Oral's stage, so that wasn't Oral's fault. He met Stiles, Stiles led him into a genuine experience that was life changing for him of speaking in tongues. In the midst of this, VPW's ego took over and his Machiavellian tendencies. He needed to turn a major experience in his life into an experience that would change the crux of Christianity. So he had himself a little conversation with God that involved bargaining (which is false - you don't bargain with God). Here I mean the "I'll teach the world if you teach me" side of things. Except VPW fibbed on who initiated that. Then he made up the "prove it to me" side, and the snow story. Then as time went on he embellished the tale. This is a telltale sign of a lie - over years a true account pretty much remains the same as it is retold. A lie needs embellishments because the truth never was at the root. Now that information is much more readily available, it's easy to prove the weather accounts false. His wife didn't tell the same embellishments in her printed account. So what does that leave you with? A God that will reward someone seeking even knowing the character flaws in them and their heart. And a man with character flaws that lied.

The object lesson here is not only to examine the lack of morals in those with ambition to climb the TWI ladder, but in those who manipulate that ambition by their assignment of and removal of titles, position, etc. TWI's BOD holds people hostage with positions, titles, etc. and the threat of losing them. That evil far exceeds the evil that you reference here of ambition and jealousy, although that account in Kris's book pretty much shows a man with little character or spine. The denominational churches just call people "pastors" regardless of whether their church is one of 25 or of 2500. But in TWI, you have the too many chiefs too little Indians scenario. Look at recent Way Corps graduations for examples. How many tiers of positions and titles do you see in those pictures of the little dictatorship hierarchy? It far exceeds the numbers in the ranks.

People that are poor are more easily controlled. People without long-term residences can be convinced to move around so that they can be more easily controlled. When a person moves to a new area they have a ready-built new family and authority figures, which the Way controls. The no-debt policy is a form of cult control.

Well I started a seperate thread on this... It seems that Pike's Peak Seminary was basically an 8 bedroom residence (house) that a few people with ThD degrees ran a correspondance school out of. From what we can piece together degree requirements probably consisted of some form of writing to be submitted by correspondance, and possibly an in-person evaluation of a sermon (VPW refers to two such presentations). Also some form of dissertation was required. You can get down a murky path talking about accreditation topics, but I think more to the point would be an examination about the rigor of the core curriculum for the degrees. Certainly in this respect Pike's Peak Seminary would be far less work than any known school's doctorate of divinity, and during that time period a degree from there would be looked down upon for legitimate reasons to the point where we see Wierwille not putting the name of the school on any of his published works. So yes, VP's doctorate degree comparatively to his contemporaries pretty much was a write a couple of essays and send in some cereal boxtops type of degree. IMO what it matters is that people that are still under the spell of the false teachers of TWI flat out won't believe your #1 thru #5 - it will slip through going from ear to ear and hitting nothing in between - if anything the only thing that will register is that anyone saying things like that is possessed. However, logical factual evidence piled up bit by bit eventually will crumble these false teachers ability to hold people spellbound and mesmerized. Seeing very clearly the fruit of people's lives, how their story differed from fact, how they lied, coerced, changed stories, that has impact. The trance induced by the false teacher has a deep hold. How deep? Look at how many start splinter groups based upon VP's core doctrine even after being savagely treated by VP's successors. I think she was forced to write this in her retirement years by okie / rfr when she would rather be doing other things. She had help pasting in plenty of scraps from the basement so the word count didn't have to go too high. And I think it was heavily edited by the publications department.

Well I started a seperate thread on this... It seems that Pike's Peak Seminary was basically an 8 bedroom residence (house) that a few people with ThD degrees ran a correspondance school out of. From what we can piece together degree requirements probably consisted of some form of writing to be submitted by correspondance, and possibly an in-person evaluation of a sermon (VPW refers to two such presentations). Also some form of dissertation was required. You can get down a murky path talking about accreditation topics, but I think more to the point would be an examination about the rigor of the core curriculum for the degrees. Certainly in this respect Pike's Peak Seminary would be far less work than any known school's doctorate of divinity, and during that time period a degree from there would be looked down upon for legitimate reasons to the point where we see Wierwille not putting the name of the school on any of his published works. So yes, VP's doctorate degree comparatively to his contemporaries pretty much was a write a couple of essays and send in some cereal boxtops type of degree.

Because people owning homes and property are far less likely to bow down to muckity-mucks living in trailers?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From TWI's own writeups - Born Again to Serve by Dorothea Kipp Wierwille - p. 67 Doctor of Theology Degree On July 5, 1948, our family of five began a trip in our new 1948 Chevrolet, given to us by the Wierwille family, to Manitou Springs, Colorado. Rev. Wierwille had been taking correspondence work with Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College and writing his doctoral dissertation on "Peter the Preacher". By being in attendance at the seminary in Colorado, he was completing his requirements for a Doctor of Theology degree. Students there came from India and China as well as various parts of the United States. Along with taking course work, Rev. Wierwille also taught two classes: "Radio Preaching Techniques" and "Peter the Preacher". On Wednesday, July 28, 1948, he was awarded the Doctor of Theology degree by Pikes Peak Seminary in a ceremony at the Community Congregational Church in Manitou Springs. Immediately after his graduation, the five of us left for Minnesota for the Camp Farthest Out at Lake Koronis. It was a most tremendous and exceptional summer to have our young family experience both occasions. There are two pictures on the page - one of the front cover of the Commencement agenda, and the second a photo of VPW with Dr. Stuart Hydanus (who later taught at one of our camps). Dr. Ellis Lininger the president of the seminary is in the picture as well. NOTE: There is not a lot of information available on Lininger - other than writeups questioning Wierwille's credentials the only other reference is that he died in 1994 and is buried in Manitou Springs.

Several threads have mentioned Dr. VPW's doctorate degree and credentials. This thread is to collect available information about Wierwille's doctorate degree as well as the organization that awarded it. John Juedes (who graces GS with his presence occasionally) has a writeup on this: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/quz_ipikepk.htm While Wayers proudly call VP Wierwille "Doctor," the biographies in his books seldom mention the source of his degree (though the wording leads some readers to believe that he received it from Princeton). Perhaps TWI is embarrassed because Wierwille received his Th. D. in 1948 from Pike's Peak Bible Seminary in Manitou Springs, Colorado (in the Colorado Springs area). In its checkered 60 year history, it has never been accredited or recognized by any reputable agency. It had no resident instruction and no published list of faculty. Wierwille once defended Pike's Peak Seminary by claiming that its president at the time he attended was Dr. H. Ellis Lininger who "had been the head of the Department of Education for the state of Colorado" (The Way-- Living in Love, p. 189). However, the Colorado Department of Education informed us that Lininger never did head this department as Wierwille claimed. (Wierwille also claimed that "I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute, too, through their correspondence courses" (TWLIL, p.175). However, although Moody records the names of all the students who completed courses since 1901, Wierwille's name never appears, indicating that if he took any courses, he never completed a single one.) It is apparent that Wierwille greatly exaggerated his educational achievements in an effort to appear more knowledgeable and credible as a Bible teacher. Note: The photo shows the entire "seminary," not just some kind of back house. The street address of Pike's Peak Seminary is 41 Lincoln. This picture is taken from Lincoln street. The other side of the house is perched on the side of a semi-wooded hill, and has no street access. The street address of 41 Lincoln Manitou Springs CO can be found on Zillow here: http://www.zillow.com/homes/41-lincoln-manitou-springs-co_rb/ Beds: 8 Baths: 7.5 Sqft: 4,571 Lot: 6,180 sq ft / 0.14 acres Type: Single Family Year built: 1900 Parking: Garage - Detached Cooling: -- Heating: Forced air Fireplace: Yes Last sold: July 25 2006 This 4571 square foot single family home has 8 bedrooms and 7.5 bathrooms. It is located at 41 Lincoln Ave Manitou Springs, Colorado. This home is in the Manitou Springs 14 School District. The nearest schools are Manitou Springs Elementary School, Manitou Springs Middle School and Manitou Springs High School.

I'll start a new thread on this...

Fear is the currency that cults use to do business.

Yeah - it just passed through a few hands and got plagiarized on the way down.

Of value to examine here is the underlying premise behind what VP and even more so now TWI teach that "research" consists of. This is valuable in answering the question "what's left to teach"? In the current TWI, "research" is defined as "re-search", or in other words searching out that which has already been searched before. Now if you take that at face value, it would be a similar approach to common academics in religious studies where they use sources from many backgrounds, examine commentaries, Dead Sea scrolls, historians, popular theologians through the ages, etc. But with TWI, what is meant is re-searching the materials that TWI has previously published. In this they are standing up their Publishing Department as the guardians and watchdogs of Biblical research. That department in the history of TWI has NEVER had qualified personnel trained in research. RFR is the prime example - no training in research, masters degree in English, and a schoolteacher. All previous forms of talent that there were at TWI in the form of research were decimated at various times. This is well documented on this site - penworks, Jon N*sle, the whole research department. Of course one of the most ignomious incidents retold on this site is John Sch*nh*t's being fired over doing a base level word study paper writeup on the word "adultery" in the Bible. The so-called "research department" of TWI has since its inception been powerless to effect any change, and only existed to establish and back up VP's doctrine. Later permutations of this department have consisted of one to two people. In Martinpuke's regime, N*ssle and W*yne Cl*pp fulfilled this, both of which had their character assassinated and were driven out and now are with another offshoot - Cl*pp is the head honcho of one. From TWI's perspective, "what's left to teach" is an endless treadmill of re-spouting VPW's materials and the subsequent refinement of them. That, along with cleaning up VP's image and whitewashing the public image of TWI, and sweeping under the carpet any negative material consists of TWI's complete current strategy. This differentiate's from an honest and truthful approach in that there are NO checks and balances upon TWI's leadership. They are free to dream evil and execute it, all in the name of "that the ministry be not blamed". Their main tools are a paint brush and a bucket of whitewash. What's left to teach? There is NOTHING left to teach. They should shut it down if they were honest, but they aren't. They have to preserve all the millions that were earned between '72 and '86 basically. Their goal is to be self-sufficient on that farm and live in their own little permutation of absolute control. Leave them alone. Migrate to different Christian channels, where the evil is not rampant and unchecked. God is bigger than all that.

Yeah you're right - pathetic to malign a dead guy. Why that Luke the physician - he had some nerve writing about that Judas Iscariot killing himself and all his character flaws. How pathetic. The same with all those other historians who wrote Old Testament books. How dare they malign Cain, Jezebel, and all the rest of the flawed people in the OT. In fact I believe all 4 Gospels are purported to be written circa 90-110AD. What nerve those men had to be speaking of dead people like that. They must of been in such bondage, and members of a cult - right? Your logic - to put it kindly - makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine. And it's leading you to acting like quite an @$$ towards people too. You might want to clean that up. To be completely clear - Jesus taught us that you know people by their fruit. This includes evidence of their character as well as their words, teachings, etc. Even more so for hypocrites - right? As how they are alone or in more elite settings can be much different than the image they portray publicly with the smiling faces and nice words.

the guilt from the abused becoming the abuser. i go thru it too - i think we all do to one degree or another. i'm just glad we broke the cycle... love u

Alllllliiissooonnnnnnnn ... I know ... this world .... is killin' ..... you ..... My aim ... is ... true...... No disrespect to the king but that was the first song that came to mind

How much you wanna bet that line about the safe with a name in it is 100% horse puckey. Complete falsehood. VP lying to coerce Jim Doop's allegiance because he needed it right then to maintain control.

It is grammatically correct to refer to the former President Bush as "W", and even more grammatically correct to pronounce it "Dubya" with a twang. It is also gramatically correct to refer to Wierwille as "Veepster the Creepster".

Most if not all of the "Special Leadership Tapes" that okus dooficus taught supposedly out of Galatians. There we learned how to use the "f" word in all parts of speech, sometimes within the same sentence, and the categorization of about two dozen devil spirits that supposedly inhibited Chris Geer, including how his head transformed into VPW one time, along with lots and lots of whining and crying. You know, when things don't go your way, demonize. Modus operandi of TWI.

It's kind of like my old man told me one time. The only thing better than a crawfish dinner is five crawfish dinners. Coach Red Beaulieu The Waterboy

I always wondered about that. So do you think Chinese tabloids have stories in them about American two-headed babies? It's possible.

Those pictures more remind me of the AC/DC song - "Whole Lotta Rosie"