chockfull

moving boundaries little by little until people no longer have control over their lives.

Did you type it that way because it all flows downhill?

This is correct. It's from a sermon by Oral Roberts entitled "The Fourth Man". IMO it's one of Oral's most dynamic teachings ever. If you've never heard it originally done by Oral, you're missing out - try to find a copy. By comparison, VPW's "Red Thread" sermon isn't James Taylor playing a cover, it's an "American Idol tryout" bad karaoke version of someone trying to imitate James Taylor playing a cover.

If you truly believe that, then there should be absolutely no challenge in transferring that value to the people VP plagiarized the stuff from in the first place. For instance, do you own a copy of JE Stiles book? I do. My first read through that I was just interested in learning what the guy who led VP into SIT was into. Realizing that without even doing any direct comparisons that RHST was at least 70% plagiarized from that book was shocking. I didn't want to believe it. I kept looking at publication dates sure that it was JE doing the plagiarizing. Eventually the facts proved out. Then I went back to read the account of VP writing that book in "The Way Living in Love", where he describes checking into a hotel and writing most of it over 2 weeks on a diet of grapes, with all of the scriptures memorized. How gullible was I?

No, that's baseball. :) It just leads to idolatry. Sometimes it's even captured on video :) Actually even going by what is taught in VP's Adv. Class, the statue itself is just a hunk of metal. But it's the associations in a person's mind of what it represents that makes it idolatry. The false allegiances of the heart that it represents are far more damaging. And I've certainly met more than a handful of people whose behavior is far more extreme in some cases than drunk baseball fans when it comes to VP - imitating speech peculiarities, physical habits, there are even people that drink too much Drambuie because he did that I've met. And every single one of them has the same story - it's not VP they worship, it's a love for the Word he taught. That is a very convenient self-delusional form of rationalization. Which is a true psychological defense mechanism for people not to have to face the reality of their dysfunction.

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse - Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen I actually would recommend giving this to someone in the Way. It's a story of those two authors fighting that in a startup church, and the scriptures they uncovered, the perspectives they developed, and the truths they learned. It never mentions cults, and certainly doesn't directly target anything in the Way. But for people who respect scripture, it helps you develop a perspective of looking for characteristics described in the Bible. And where someone sees those can be eye opening.

And make little bronze images of him for people to sit on their desks and big bronze images of him to place in the entrance of the auditorium... Gag me with an idol. Can I have my blacklight picture of Jesus back plz? I'm much more comfortable with that concept.

Leave it to Beaver meets The Stepford Wives. It really captures the flavor well...

I would totally agree with this. Incrementalism. The way you really see this is by noting all the things that are asked of certain members in private. This is like Proverbs talks about in Proverbs 6 about the person who winks with their eyes, speaks with feet, teaches with their fingers - and how they sow discord. Now in TWI, they teach that this verse is about the "seed of the serpent" men and women. How perfect. What a great disguise for nobody ever considering that is how they operate. In the advanced circles, the elite of the elite, the pharisees of the pharisees, this is how it works. VPW, LCM, Rosalie whispers to a Cabinet member, a Region leader pre-prepares a Limb or Branch coordinator, then when in the presence of the person they have prepared in their hearts libel, slander, and false testimony against, a little wink is all it takes. A point of the finger, a pre-arranged signal, and people on queue attack with their libelous accusations. And people are demolished - sent away, kicked out, blackballed, labeled as 'possessed', shunned. I've seen this so many times. Now in a normal Christian type of interaction and fellowship, you would never be able to convince someone to do this kind of thing. So how do they do it? Incrementalism. Teachings about commitment, step by step. The more committed you are, the more you want to be part of that 'inner circle'. The more you would justify to get there or stay there. It's a lust for power that drives it. Take PFAL, or the FNC, and you aren't even aware of this. However, as you advance, the programs stack up. Advanced class? Sell your house - get rid of your mortgage, become a nomad for the Way. Become trained. WOW / Way Disciple - now you're introduced to the more elite - you were willing to give up everything for a year and move wherever they told you. Corps? Same but even more - now you have people evaluate where you are every year and can tell you to leave or move. Clergy? You take a salt covenant with the leader to be bound to their will. Any misstep will have dire consequences. I was discussing this with a psychologist over a meal once. He said that incrementalism presents choices in very small changes. Then you wonder how you got so far offline from normal. Every choice is not a choice between a scale of zero being the norm and minus 250 being your current choice. That would raise too many alarms. Its the choice between zero and minus 5. Then so on and so forth. And finally minus 245 to 250 is the choice faced. Not too different from where you are at. And spread out over time, the normal alarms in a person's conscience are bypassed. Classic conditioning. Pavlov's dog. It's the tool of the cults. Behavior control. Control in general is the paramount thing. If you control the environment you control the person.

LOL. That about describes it.

You know interestingly enough pondering over that "ever learning and never able to come to the truth" - what that sparks to my mind is all those years of endlessly going over and over and teaching the same stuff - vol. 1 to 5, FNC (PFAL and WAP), class series, every year the JCOP/JCPS. When you think about it Rosie's definition of research as "re-search - searching out again for ourselves that which has been proven" is really exactly that - ever learning and never able to come to the truth. Also their frame of reference for truth is "that which has been previously published". They are worshipping man's thoughts, not God and His Word.

The levels of abuse from all fronts reached a high enough level I prayed to God for the abuse to stop. The answer to prayer was a clear path to leave TWI. The abuse stopped as there was no more contact with the abusers.

Short term trepidation because people who I thought were my friends really were not and probably never were. This didn't last. I found new friends quickly, through work, hobbies, local community. Those relationships were freer to establish as I didn't have conflict over the ulterior motives expected of me to sell them TWI. More abundance in: Finances - as I no longer had to support local leaders and HQ with my money, also didn't have to spend thousands on moving for them, on taking my vacation to go to their events and listen to them, etc. Time - no more endless meetings with various groups necessary to maintain the control over people Family - closer relationships with them now that I no longer had the TWI infused "better-Christian-than-thou" or "household vs. family" attitude. Career - can travel some for it now when always had to worry if it would conflict with some meeting or event. More time to actually develop one rather than slaving the 8 to 5 then running off to some meeting. Community - now can actually give to my community time, money, effort rather than having it be called a 2nd rate cause. Health - now I have time to work out more, pay attention to nutrition, less stress, more sleep. Organization - now I can keep one calendar with everything in it rather than having to have multiple ones so that the overseer can review it and discuss with me. Self-Worth - can spend my effort on what's in my heart, and what I believe God is working in my heart rather than being used to promote others agendas.

I've got one for VP. "You tell me about your educational credentials, and I'll tell you how much I should care what you think".

And if he were able to sit up in his grave he'd see the exact same thing today. In his ministry.

That's right. We can't have Donna getting hot flashes from all of those movements of the Swinging Ladies. That would just be so wrong.

I'm glad TWI can add value somehow in our world...

There's a good point. Now they circumvent that in their tithing/ABS teachings by teaching people to pay their debt to God first, then to man, meaning their debt to God is sending in money to TWI. But examine the logic of that for a second, as you brought up. Any debt to God has to be obeying His commandments, right? And if their teaching is accurate on debt, then if God's commandment is not to be in debt, then that would supercede their obligation to an earthly ministry, right? All of that is so convoluted it's a catch-22. And their logic gets even more convoluted, right? You quoted R1c* M*gn3lli a while back stating that he believed that welfare was designed by God so believers didn't have to go into debt. What the end effect of this produces is basically keeping people poor and on welfare. All the money you have to get out of debt quicker has to have a large portion going to TWI. This prolongs the debt. If you can get out of debt by preying upon relatives, or getting bailed out by the taxpayers in your community, oh then that's God's will. Whatever happened to each person counting for one? Why does TWI promulgate having such burdens on society?

So you're saying that LCM was better suited for a fast food management job as opposed to running a Christian ministry? Interesting....

I remember one story about VP writing the Receiving the Holy Spirit book - how he moved into a hotel for 2 weeks, ate a diet of nothing but grapes, and wrote the whole book with no notes having all of the 350+ scriptures on the topic in memory. He just left out the part where he had JE Stiles book sitting right next to him so he could transcribe while changing a few words ;)

The national average hourly billing rate for lawyers is $284/hr.

I would have to say they have to be. There's been enough of people writing in to confront the debt position that has been brought up. Like many other things there is a double standard for those running the place and the minions. I think for a period of time under okie that was true because they paid all the housing stuff out of housing accounts which was handled seperately. However, no receipts were involved - just a ledger entry. I think that there has been some threat of lawsuit with keeping them out of personal business to the point where they now are forced to just pay a salary and all those people arrange their housing on their own. That's an apt description of the current lot - less than a quarter of a brain.

I think you've got that right. I personally have faced challenges in the org where I refused to squish people - I've always been more of a person that roots for the underdog. I'm sure I just don't have what it takes.

Remember Jesus confronted the Pharisees saying that Israel was a generation "seeking after signs" when he was the sign. Not staying humble and playing "diva" with God just causes you to go blind. Yeah - it's all such a catch-22. People criticize GS for bringing up details attacking VPW's person, character, etc. They rationalize all that and say "just focus on the Word he taught". People are human and make mistakes - there's the frailty of the human behavior. Jesus taught us to know people by their fruit. He also said "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", and "a little leaven leavens the whole lump". I guess if all this was easy, then wolves couldn't disguise themselves as sheep.