chockfull

Thanks for the persepective WG. Now some will say with the modern days and demise of the 2nd prez this doesn't happen any more and it's a "kinder, gentler ministry". The truth of this is that yes, you will no longer hear screaming fits on the STS or screaming fits on a Corps teaching. Under RFR, that doesn't happen any more. All teachers on public forums are properly medicated and calm. However, the end results and actions still DO happen. People are "cast out, fired, slandered" still in this very day and time. BOD members when questioned about "so and so" will not disclose any information. Is this better? I guess it's a matter of perspective. Yes it's better not to hear a fool yelling during meetings that were supposed to be for teaching / learning. But the same knife in the back carried out by a sugary sweet North Carolina accent person and her underlings is no less evil. In fact, it's probably more evil. Because the package on the outside says sugar, but what's on the inside is still a $%^& sandwich. Now it has more of a Mafia flavored goon squad feel to it. And nobody will garner up enough gonads to throw the witch over the wall so to speak. Just one small recent example. Read through the thread on the Hirschf3ld thing. A young guy had visions of making lots of money as an investor, and a bunch of people to invest. He didn't have creds, moved money around, and in effect ended up enacting a Ponzi scheme. RFR went on a warpath over this, as it's little Donna's sister that lost money, and basically cast out most of a whole state over it. OldSkool has recent tales. Others as well. No, we are talking bad news. We are talking corruption at the top permeating down. Now you may have some local guy being real quiet and yessing the directives to death while providing some insulation for people locally. But that is very rare, and they will be driven off.

The one caveat you didn't mention here was TWI's definition of research - meaning to "re-search" out the "tremendous truths" that have already been searched out. Genuine research where you are permitted to arrive at a different conclusion? Not so much. In fact, looking at the history of TWI's "Research Department" is enlightening in this respect. Originally put together to help establish VPW's works, and to help put the effort and legwork into topics he couldn't do himself (like JCPS, JCOP), it grew under his presidency. Charlene / Penworks who posts here was part of that team, albeit more towards the end. Then the next president, LCM, pretty much decimated that department. Everyone was fired. There were 2 guys that helped him when he was doing his classes (W@yne Cl@pp, and J0n N3ssle). Both were fired / slandered, and went on to be key personnel in splinter groups. Today there is one guy who does it part time, and what he does basically consists of investigating what RFR tells him to and reports back. TWI is absolutely not going to consider any new research presented by any member. One example of this is the debt policy. I personally know of a handful of people who have researched that topic and presented it to TWI leadership. What was the response? RFR saying "oh, we're not studying that right now". And then over the course of 2-3 years after that each one of those individuals was demoted, fired, slandered. EVERY one. Pretty much a similar pattern to the John Schoenh3it adultery paper. "encourages each individual to do their own Independant research". Yeah, that's rich. From my perspective the robots are there due to the above functioning and policies of the leadership of TWI. You don't find such robots in churches. The organization is the one with the assembly line for them. This is pretty admirable for a couple (I'm assuming Dw is your wife). It also is pretty insightful into exactly how you avoided becoming too much of a robot and avoided the wrath of TWI. 17 different 3 1/2 month sub patrols where you were not subject to TWI leadership but only your own conscience. That actually adds up to 5 years. Plus, with the military factor and transition times, it was very hard for any local TWIdiot leader to control you. This is not how it works with 98% of people in TWI. My twigs functioned like that too. Sometimes you can provide insulation against the evil that functions in the org. But it eventually catches up. Or eventually you have to open your eyes to it. Or consider that your good heart and actions are being used to promulgate evil. If Naten came along with a seminary background, did his own independent research, taught it in twigs, and talked about it amongst the leadership in TWI, over time there would be friction built up between him and the leadership of TWI. This would result in him being disciplined, and if he did not change, being cast out. This has been proven too many times over to dispute. Although the world you live in seems really nice too.

You guys all bring up good points. I am not trying to present "the last word" on anything. I'm mostly just trying to expand my thinking beyond the extreme fundamentalist viewpoint I learned in TWI. Why? Because I found in application that viewpoint to be elitist, egotistical, and harmful. So I think that is a flaw in approaching understanding scripture as well. WW - that's a good point regarding antanaclasis - I'm going to have to think on that one for a while. That Proverb DOES call out some extremeties in language at least in the English such that figures of speech are naturally a good consideration. Is antanaclasis two different meanings of a word in the same sentence? Like the "hang" examples? I'll have to dig out my Bullingers and see what he says there. Does Bullinger identify a "contradictory statement" as a unique figure of speech? That would be kind of a breaking up against rather than the word meaning the whole thought. Maybe antanaclasis covers it, or maybe another in that family. That's also a good consideration to look at the logical common sense understanding outside of that, and to investigate the different translations. To me the common sense understanding would probably be something like supplying an ellipsis at the beginning of each sentence like (Depending on the context, ...). johniam - your examples of how Jesus handled fools in different contexts is great too. Sometimes he answered them, other times he didn't. It is interesting to look at his example in light of the Proverb - was it always either to keep the fools ego in check or to differentiate himself from them? I thought some of the silence in answering accusations were the fulfillment of prophecy - "like a lamb to the slaughter" and all that. I guess this topic is somewhat controversial too - it seems that "contradictions in the Bible" is a subject where people could feel that the whole thing falls apart if they are there. So I guess that the positive side of the Fundamentalist view is that there is an absolute truth and there is something to hang onto that is solid and unchanging. But I tell you I will no longer tolerate in myself the TWI viewpoint of walking around with the nose in the air around other Christians thinking "they're just not in the household". That attitude is a disease. That is the start to where all these little TWI Napoleans justify their atrocities "so that the ministry be not blamed". And I think the extremist Fundamentalist view is at the root there. So while this thread is waxing a touch doctrinal, I guess we can also classify it under the proper view of scriptures outside of the influence of TWI as well.

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. So which is it? I'm not calling you a fool, I am just pointing out the most clear scriptures with contradicting statements, and they happen to follow one after the other in the text. Is it impossible to consider that those two verses can co-exist together under one understanding of reality? Well, I agree with you that every aspect of life cannot be filled with contradiction or there would be no way of making sense of anything. The mathematical axioms are underlying truths used to deduce and build whole models for understanding our world that mostly apply. Your bank account has to function under those rules or free commerce would collapse. The same with an understanding of God and our Savior. The many ways vs. one way to salvation is a good example there. However, you are talking about "life" with "no contradictions". Life involves human nature, and IMO when you start to deal with the human element is where the mathematical axioms break down. Yes, sometimes you need to answer a fool. Yet other times you need to not answer a fool. Which is right? It depends. Do I need to focus on works or grace spiritually in my life? Well, if I'm a good-for-nothing couch potato that does nothing but sit around all day I may need to take a look at works. However, if I'm a self-flagellating legalist driving those around me to consider assassination, then perhaps a focus on grace is more appropriate. I'm not saying all of life has to accept contradictions. But people - they are walking contradictions most of the time anyway if you get real about it.

My reply to this is a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines". I have seen a plethora of little statesmen in TWI, and philosphers and divines all around. Perhaps what is necessary is the breaking down of the walls of the man-made system that requires everything to fit together without contradiction. My God is powerful enough to make contradictory statements that are true depending upon the context and yet still be right, just and Himself. Shoot people do this all the time and having relationships with them hinges upon being able to accept that. Just some thoughts. Apparently I'm on a roll tonight.

Dude - absolutely LOVE the logic in this post. When you say there are two completely different doctrines about salvation living side by side throughout the NT I believe you are spot on. You know the limited miniscule logic of TWI and fundamentalists just reject that out of course saying "well, God can't contradict Himself". I find that to be a narrow-minded consideration. Is it completely out of the picture to consider that God would want both lines of logic present in believer's lives? Here's a parallel example - the government of the United States. We have 3 branches of government in place - the Executive, the Judicial, and the Legislative. The advantage of this system is that each of the 3 keeps the other in check such that no one branch gains an unfair advantage. (Now, yes as it seems in modern times the down side to this is the balance of power produces stalemate on getting much done.) What about the two lines of logic in scripture? Justification by Works such that believers focusing on their faith producing proper fruit. Justification by Grace such that believers avoid the comparison and judging one another pitfall that an exclusive focus on works would produce, and a focus on the mercy of the Father and Grace of the Father are forefront. To me those two lines of logic compliment one another, and keep one another in check. The Legalists are reproved. The Hedonists are reproved. The balance is maintained. Why can mankind when thinking of governments expand the thought process to design something that maintains the freedom of those under it's rule, yet when thinking of God revert to the most narrow-minded, redneck, bigoted type of interpretation ever? People are stupid and limited when it comes to their thinking of God. We are trapped into labels and buckets - either a Fundamentalist view, or a Unitarian view. Why can't we expand our viewpoints and live up to the potential that God created in us?

This is "The Greatest Secret in TWI Today".

I agree skyrider.

With us using Galen as an example on this thread, and him posting I just wanted to take the time to say that Galen himself is actually a really nice guy and a good person. I'm sure many people around TWI have met him over the years.

In many ways not being under the authority of a larger organization leaves people more free to follow their conscience. Yes, that guy was a little bit nuts. My analysis of that is it was a subconscious reaction to his wife leaving him in stages for another woman. Nowadays the SNS tapes are heavily scripted, and the best description of them I can give is "vanilla", or "like elevator music". They are definitely not a thinking man's teaching.

Your standard thoroughfare fellowship attendee will be a little stymied with that answer on the fnc. As you get further up the food chain, you'll run into people who will know how to respond. In the Corps, there has always been specific training on overcoming objections like this. For example, someone might respond "Well, that's why you should take the FNC. Where else can you take advantage of over 60 years of Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship and learn fundamental keys on how the Word interprets itself as an augmentation to your bible college studies?" No, they will carefully gauge your response over time to whether or not you will take the FNC. Then, directed by the leader (Branch, Twig, Limb, etc.) they will label you as "not hungry for the Word", and shun you partially or altogether. That behavior will continue throughout the duration of your involvement. The group dynamics condition people towards the behavior they expect or want. Leaders will most certainly track which classes you have taken and coach you to get to the next level, the Intermediate or Advanced classes, then after that going to work on Staff or going out on Way Disciples as an outreach program, or going into the Way Corps. With the classes it will pretty much be an assumption you'll take the next one. With the programs it's more like "have you ever considered doing X, and how it will bless your life?" Now if you look at that all by itself many may say "what's wrong with that, aren't they just helping people?" The problem is that structure serves the people at the top. And those people will think nothing of lying, slandering, calling people possessed, blackballing them, and doing whatever it takes to preserve their little positions and power they have. The organization and structure serves the Pharisees who run it. That's what's wrong with it. Now with people like Galen on this thread, who have been around TWI for 30 years or so, he's taken the Adv. Class and with the military career avoided a lot of the normal pressuring towards the more advanced programs. He's at a place now where they'll mostly leave him alone and not do all the peer pressuring, except for maybe once a year when requests come out to fill Staff positions they'll ask him. That is why I'm saying I don't know what you'll get out of attending a fellowship to "see how they function". I mean the meeting structure is mostly like an old church service. The people will love bomb you at first as someone who will actually agree to come to a fellowship that hasn't been around the org for years is more of a rarity. The numbers aren't exactly growing. And you'll experience what I describe. Or they may hide the recruiting behavior a bit before they come back around to it.

I don't want to get into a doctrinal dispute over this, but Jesus approved of the widow's heart and intent, and used it to confront the Pharisees. Similarly with his answer about paying dues, that was a response to the Pharisees trying to trap him with words. In Jesus time and culture there was one group/nation/organization that represented God. In our time and culture there are many, and we are free to choose where our support goes. We are speaking of different things. I think it's a bit of a stretch from Jesus answer to the Pharisees to infer that doctrinally you should financially support cults who harm people. I disagree with that in theory or in practice. In my experience people can be good and evil and you don't always experience all of a person until a situation arises that brings out their inner character. I too have experienced the good in people at many different levels within TWI. Yet I have also seen the best and kindest completely shun their own flesh and blood child when they did not "stand in the household". One example of this is the current President. She has a son. She ensured he was on "mark and avoid" status.

First, thanks for conversing. As far as money and support there is a difference in it being used for evil without your knowledge, and it being used for evil with your knowledge. Part of that is accounability. The question I have for your twig is "what about Pharisees?" what do you do about them? what does the Bible say about recognizing them? are you supposed to support them financially to empower them? are you supposed to listen to their mandates, allow them to teach you their doctrine? Those would make for some really great study questions. But probably not ones your twig would be interested in, or even if they were would connect the behavior to the leadership of TWI. Yes, blinders. Some of the answers I have from Biblical studies are "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", and "a little leaven leavens the whole lump". These are Biblical truths, as opposed to Way cliches, like "the 'life' of the Way is in the twigs". The sense I get from your post is that you realize there is evil going on in TWI, but since it goes on everywhere in the world and in other organized religion, you really don't care as long as you have a nice group of folks there locally who are comfortable with each other. That's a very comfortable and complacent attitude. Many people are completely satisfied with that, and won't ever change as long as they live. These people keep TWI leaders from ever facing any accountability for their actions on earth. The return of Christ might just hold some surprises in store.

But it's not inappropriate that of the money you put in the horn 75% of it goes to pay their salaries? Wow. This is called being an "enabler". I'm not trying to be too harsh here, Galen. This is a very common attitude among TWI'ers. "Just take care of yourselves and your twig and God will sort out the rest". But there are blinders on. The majority are being used to enable the evil that goes on at the top. This is why when I became aware of it and realized it was not going to change I voted with my feet. My life, talents, energies, money, free time, education, expertise will NOT be used to enable the abuse that runs rampant in this cult. And I won't turn a blind eye to it any more, I will expose it. The only way evil exists is when good people do nothing to stop it.

So to expand on this - starting currently - the current President was chosen due to a sex scandal combined with developing a deep and questionable relationship with the former President's wife which was used as political maneuvering to be placed as the 2nd in command so as to capitalize on the sex scandal. None at the top levels have training on how to run corporations. Best choice? Rather transparent. The past 2 Presidents have had severe issues with sex scandals, have a history of damaging many of their own top people's lives irreparably. The second president was chosen due to unquestioning obedience. Best choice? The Way Corps - a group with over a 90% attrition rate over time (I guess you'd call that poorly chosen), the training consists of learning unquestioning obedience to leadership, and salesmanship of classes, and going over and over and over current publications. That's not so much lacking training but training the wrong things to be ministers. Best choices?

Unfortunately, the problem with just attending a fellowship "to be more informed on how they operate" isn't very realistic. "How they operate" is pretty well exposed on this website, and it's among the only places that the truth comes out about that. You won't see "how they operate" at a local fellowship. You won't even see an accurate portrayal of how the fellowship operates until you are there for longer than you think. Many of us took decades of our life dedicated to this group only to find out well into it "how they operate". And that is present tense, starting with the current BOD and the current President. This is not a phenomenon where past leaders weren't so good but the current ones are better. The current leadership of TWI is probably more evil even than the past leadership. Look at the fruit of their lives, and the wake of damaged people behind them. Pharisees are the biblical term whereby you can understand them the best. At a local fellowship, when you first attend, people will be nice to you. There's a concept called "love bombing", which many people currently in TWI don't like the term, but it is accurate. People will shower you with positive emotion, reinforcement, "love", and the encouragement will build to "take the class". From there it is a consistent pattern of increasing levels of indoctrination and "commitment" - selling your soul to TWI leadership and their political structure. What's a fellowship like? Well the service is not too far removed from your normal church service. Songs, prayer, manifestations, offering, teaching, closing song, snacks after. What's the difference? It's in someone's house. There's a spin to that about it being "just like they did it in Acts". However, in reality in Acts they didn't have a budgetary structure where 75% of your abundant sharing (minimum 10% of your net paycheck - tithe / 15% - 20% abundant sharing) goes to TWI headquarters and 25% is spent within the local area it originated in (usually in the form of paying the salary of a region coordinator). So I would liken going to a fellowship with going fishing where you are the fish. You will experience some very tasty bait. And hopefully you'll be able to avoid the hook. If you don't you might find yourself years down the road asking "why".

Well, from a positive perspective I'm thankful they are sticking with their level of artistic talent and doing stick figures rather than the "Return to the Planet of the Apes" people they used to do. Oh, and it does beg one question. Does this mean Donna's moving in with Rosie?

I t0t@11y @gr33.

That's because 83.6% of all statistics are made up on the fly. Wait, 83.61%.

You know although they fear it IMO this would be the best thing for them. There is so much out there that is so much better. Plus they could look themselves in the mirror...

why is rosie still prez? because she hasn't trained up anyone who's threefold the child of hell she is yet to replace her.

In the case of some of these people and TWI, you could almost say they deserve each other. There's another couple I know, active Way Corps - the woman was deeply involved in all the sex scandal stuff - she is remarried. They always get full-time field assignments because it's hush money paying her to keep her trap shut.

I wish John Lynn would try S.T.F.U instead.

I'm sure it would have. Now we couldn't have you taking pictures of the Way Corps Chalet and possibly putting together a motif of possibly seeing M@rcia L0mb@rdi and M3l1ss@ G30rge frolicking down the path hand in hand from their little home there as a nice little couple. I mean that might have the making of a nice little old time type of Life magazine journalism piece capturing the current flavor of the cult - like a "what became of the groovy Christians?" piece. Because the public's right to travel down a county built and owned road surely can't supercede the right of "da ministry not to be blamed". :unsure:

In theory they could, but they would have to get together and plan a coup. She senses when people start thinking for themselves and axes them immediately. One example - H@rv3 Pl@tig - he was demoted from VP. Probably Rpp and JYDlsle are paranoid enough they can't trust that if they would talk to each other about it that the other wouldn't go to Rosie behind their back and get them ousted. It's a reign of paranoia and terror. I mean if you study history of Hitler and Stalin you see similar types of paranoia with Hitler and Stalin literally having political opponents murdered. Rosie just has them kicked out, bum rushed out of their position, salary, HQ - has them blackballed and demoted to a position or put on "probation", and tarnishes their reputation labeling them as having "spiritual problems" such that none in the org will give them audience and they are mainly shunned. But it's the same MO and God will reward Rivenb@rk according to the evil within her. He is not mocked, and the voices from those affected cry out from all over the world.