chockfull

Because it never goes out of style....

Yes, you're right about the order. I reversed the phrases. That phrase was definitely used to indicate to the follower that whatever a particular leader told you (the ministry), you had to obey because if you didnt' you were arguing with the Word. Hey I've got a better phrase that's much more accurate: You can't seperate the BOD of TWI from stupidity.

Yes, if you combine that with all the "present truth" spins, basically it produces a formula where the follower has unquestioning obedience to the higher up in the ministry. That produces a captive/captor type of relationship. And an easy recipe for the beginning of abuse.

The phrase I remember the higher up muckity mucks quoting with down-the-nose glances all trying to sound spiritual was: "The ministry is the Word and the Word is the ministry". This is a step in human rationalization that allows for all of the moral compromises necessary to be a muckity muck. For instance, now they can take the verse about the ministry not being blamed and justify all sorts of lies, cover-ups, untruths as well as the standard practices of slander, libel, ruining people's reputation, shunning them, etc. This is why they are in for a shock at the return of Jesus Christ. The "fruit" of their selling out to the ministry involves fruit that is much more similar to a politician than a Christian. What they produce they will live with.

Well, well, well. The Internet is serious bizness :) New Bern, NC is in Craven County. http://deeds.cravencounty.com/external/LandRecords/protected/SrchQuickName.aspx Searching on Rosalie Fox Rivenbark brings up a marriage license: Issued: March 1960 GROOMS SHUMATE, JAMES MARSHALL JR BRIDES RIVENBARK, ROSALIE FOX AND - a birth record SHUMATE, JAMES MARSHALL III - born 1961. Surmising - must have been Rosalie's first son.

You know, while Craig's rants during his Foundational Class on the topic were probably fueled by things going on personally in his life, and they really probably shouldn't be in a class like that, if you are going to run a fundamentalist Bible organization that believes "the Word of God is the Will of God", then it's really, really hard to get away from what is stated in Romans regarding the topic. Hypocrisy, ain't it a b1tch???

Also, I think it is compelling to illustrate how Rosalie handles inquiries about her support of homosexuality/lesbianism. I heard an account about a Way Corps grad while at Camp Gunnison asking Vince McF about what the story was regarding Janet M and Sharon C living in her basement in one bedroom in one bed. Vince was supposedly bragging about his close relationship with Rosalie showing pictures of them together, how he personally emails her, etc. - I guess to those climbing the ring kissing ladder that is impressive. So this Corps grad asks what about Janet and Sharon? Vince says "I don't know - I'll ask". So he goes and asks, and gets back to the person asking. The answer given was "they said they were delivered". Next came the inquisition and intense pressure from the Way Tree arm / Way of the USA. It was like you had stirred up a beehive. How dare this person question the morals of the president. This was an attack of the adversary. So multiple layers of counseling layers of leadership in the Way Tree about how to handle these types of devilish questions, an inquisition of the person asking them - of course the Corps grad had already been dropped or classified as "alumni" and had no leadership responsibility so they couldn't threaten any of that. But believe me if that person had any of those, Rosalie would have had it removed. They came down on this person like a ton of bricks - and all the leadership in the local area basically treated this person with contempt from that day onward. The Region Coordinator eventually got the spotlight off himself by saying "yeah, we see this type of attack from the adversary on a periodic basis - accusations like these kick up about twice a year, so we have to handle them". This shows the general pattern of what happens when anyone questions things coming from Rosalie. So first, the answer to the questions brings up some severe BS detectors. They said they were delivered? So is this how you help people stay delivered or recovered? What about an alchoholic? Would you give them a job as a bartender at your club? Allow them to have a fully stocked bar in the one-bedroom apartment they rent from you in your house? What exactly is it about having two females live in a one-bedroom apartment in your basement together and sleep in the same bed for years that promotes them being "delivered" from lesbianism? The two were inseperable around TWI HQ (much like Rosalie and Donna), they gave each other rings on an anniversary of their knowing each other. They both left HQ together and moved to the same location when leaving staff - Rosalie threw them a going away party. Oh, and here's the most insane part. One of the biggest reasons for those two being on staff was that Janet Myracle was present during Craig's "homo purges". She was particularly adept at "sniffing out homosexuality" or people that were lying about it. She exposed many, many people hiding out in that situation on staff who were blackballed and sent away. Janet's end goal was to be ordained. When that failed, Janet and Sharon moved. Very clearly, Rosalie was lying in her response to this Way Corps grad. In fact, what she was doing was sheltering a lesbian couple from the negative impact of Craig's homo purge, all the while using them to expose others. In addition to this, Rosalie and Donna, while Donna was married to Craig, were becoming closer and closer. She was isolating Donna away from Craig, getting closer and closer emotionally (and undoubtedly sexually too), which of course was edging Craig closer and closer to insanity. He was unfaithful to his wife, then saw her being taken away from him bit by bit and there was nothing he could do about it. Finally, the ultimate coup for Rosalie - Craig slipped up and ....ed off a married guy with his antics, and got sued. There was the leverage to take over the Presidency. Next, after an appropriate period of time passed for the public to get used to it, she had Craig dropped from the Corps, fired from staff, moved off of TWI grounds, and at the same time made an exception in policy for Donna to stay there and not have to leave with her husband. Since that time it's unclear whether Craig and Donna are actually divorced legally, or just seperated - whatever has happened it has been whitewashed over many times to explain anything away. Next, the President's Cabinet. Do they know all this? While there is no 100% proof of anything, many of those guys are smart enough to navigate tricky TWI politics, and remain having a teflon coating. It's hard to believe that after years working around those two that they have no clue of this. However, I'm sure it's hidden. If the cabinet people do start to garner a clue, then they have a pretty severe inner conflict with continuing to support those antics. So there probably is a blend of people on the Cabinet that are so fanatical they would never entertain an idea regarding the truth of their scenario along with others who suspect but are preserving their little rice bowl, to others that become conflicted and drop off. Oh, what a tangled web we weave. Last I heard, Leah ran off and eloped and got married. She couldn't get away from HQ fast enough.

One interesting angle to look at with respect to Rosalie and Donna's relationship is to look at the impact upon each of their children. Rosalie has kids from best guess a previous marriage (although she hides details of her personal life and past so extensively it's hard to get info on it). They are marked and avoided by her. I have heard one of them had a drug problem. I don't know how many kids, how long she was married, etc. I don't know if a marriage license from North Carolina is available to find. Suffice it to say that her children have long since been abandoned and are not involved in TWI. Donna has 3 kids from the marriage with Craig - Tim, Leah, and Dorothy. I don't believe any of them have much of anything to do with TWI. They are certainly not interested in the TWI leadership program (Way Corps) unless my facts are way off base. So in other words the way these two are living isn't even compelling to their own children.

There have been quite a number of threads on some of this. IMO what's important is that since Rosalie and Donna have chosen to conceal the true nature of their relationship, any information that exposes that is helpful. Not from a personal perspective - I mean if they want to run off together to get a small house and live happily ever after great. But when they conceal it and conspire together to amass all the power and money from TWI's heyday and destroy other people's lives in doing so people need to see the truth. TWI active members unless you assimilate a whole bunch of facts together are not going to believe it. Even then they will discount it and say people are lying about the facts. The internet allows people to get together and compare notes to assemble a picture of what's really going on - because the leaders lie about it. From my recollection here are elements and facts: 1) Donna at a night owl in-residence sharing she was attracted to women as well as men. 2) Donna sharing to a group of people at the Indiana campus she and Rosalie went on vacation together and stayed at a particular spot - known to have accomodations where they would have had to stay in the same bed. 3) People walking up on them in a car where they were being intimate. 4) Janet Myracle and Sharon Crowther lived together as a couple in Rosalie's basement for years, sharing one bedroom and a single bed. 5) Rosalie visited those two on personal vacation - presumably for the purpose of ensuring their silence on matters.

MLM organizations are cults so they are cross-selling to a known demographic?

I've run into TWI minions over years since leaving. Most act like that - like they will immediately develop leprosy upon having a conversation with you. The funny part about that is that while in TWI some of these people I would have considered friends. The realization is that they never were. The few who would not be too scared to talk to me are those on a short list where I would rather punch them in the jaw rather than speaking anyway due to their pompous arrogance.

1. Get out from under their authority immediately. They have no authority over your life beyond that which you allow. 2. Get new friends. 3. Get a hobby, put more time into career, family, and other things that build your own life personally. 4. Read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse".

I look at the awareness of spirits - good and evil as just part of my overall relationship with my Father. I discuss things with Him. If there's something He wants me to see He lets me know. Sometimes I wonder why, but usually it's evident - either to avoid something or to help in some way, or just to pray. The times I don't know why I believe that it might be important in the future somehow. I don't like discussing the specifics of all this as I think it's just for your private prayer life and relationship with God. We all can see the horrors of what happens when people "overshare" regarding these experiences with all the witch hunting in CFF and all the "revelations" there. There people can and did mix up politics, personal battles, and dreams all together into one large vat of crapola. The same happens in TWI with all of the different purges, and there have been and are many purges. Sure there are evil spirits. It's still very true that "greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world". And its true that like Jesus was tempted in the wilderness to recklessly rely on a display of God's power, we will get tempted with spiritual knowledge to get cocky and trip up so that knowledge can be used against us. In a lot of ways I believe that all the stupid mechanics of "the manifestations" we were taught in TWI just got in our way. I've always had what I needed praying simply like a little child, and that includes God setting things up for me to see what He wants me to see - sometimes that's insight or vision spiritually, other times it can be just circumstances and life unfolding in a certain way. For me, the relationship is still the key.

It's not my life's purpose - it's just a hobby ;) And a little bit of atonement for being their shill for years to be completely honest.

I think your viewpoint challenges many around here. Why? Because all of us struggle with the same things - we were in twi for as long and longer than you, we obviously drew some benefit out of it. Yet we also feel a need to expose the evil in twi for service to others and to make sense of our own past. Those are not simple things. Most around here do not fellowship with people who do it basically the same way. That would be very conflicting for the majority. I disagree with your "robotic whining" comment. I do think people jump on a bandwagon quickly around here, but in many ways the thought process we go through when doing that helps uncover and expose another layer of BS that we see w/r to twi and functioning evil. Or at least all that stuff I am attributing to the group I feel and think. I'm sure I am at this juncture more partisan towards anti way content. I can accept that criticism. However, I feel it is an adequate and healthy balance compared to the past decades where I was blind and pro twi. You don't bother me with your viewpoints including any pro twi slant. I do try to answer you and challenge you with thought-through content and comments if I disagree. I think we can all do that.

I for one am glad you are here. Your voice matters. Love it waysider. :)

In fact, this is the underlying message to the vast majority of TWI's leadership training - God has a caste system. If you are on the low end of the totem pole - chair stringing, babysitting for higher ups for free, cleaning their house for free, no school, no money, no health care beyond welfare. However, if you are on the upper end of the system, you can drink Drambuie, have sex with untold number of women, smoke like a chimney, fly your personal plane around, and bet on horses at the state fair to learn about revelation. This is the reality of how the people act in TWI. Of course if you would dare to suggest that is the case, they would sluff it off, say it's lies, etc. However, just about any independant 3rd party observer could easily document it. One example of such is John Juedes. When Jesus Christ comes back TWI leaders are going to get the shock of all ages learning that Jesus really meant what he said that God is no respecter of persons, and that they will be judged how they have judged others. Bunch of overly entitled buffoons if you ask me, and whether it is masked in stupid Okie, or condescending Southern Belle, it all is the same horse puckey.

Yes, censorship. They can't silence it, so the next best thing is to make up a scripture context and label it as evil. Thus she will teach all the "corrupt communication" verses in the context of posting negative things about TWI on the internet. Of course the reality is that people here on GSC are telling the truth about TWI, and Rosalie is lying. But until TWI followers, questioners, etc. come to the point where they are willing to consider that their commander in chief is lying, they won't believe the truthful accounts here. She is lying like a rug, and has a multitude of witnesses against her. Once people start to see that she does not deserve the spiritual authority they have allowed her over their lives, the curtain is drawn back and the puppetmaster is exposed.

Since leaving I have transformed St. Patty's Day back from Burn the Chaff Day to the type of festivity originally intended and required - drinking Guiness and pinching the non green wearning.

Yes, full of contradictions. The FNC is to sell TWI to the masses. It's only after years of pursuing one's own poverty to help increase the $52M coffers at TWI that the "more advanced" interpretation comes into play. FWIW, I remember hearing an old variant teaching of that on a tape where VP used the physical example of real butter vs. Oleo at the dinner table where butter represented abundance and he refused from that point to use Oleo.

Sorry that happened to you WG. I'm glad you stood up to that and fought for your son. If you hadn't then nobody would. He was given love growing up by you and a chance to succeed that he never would have had. That's more of an example of what JC would do than anything TWI leaders ever did. Jesus was the champion of the downtrodden, sick, the orphans without a home. I'm glad you cared enough to extend that love to him. All of us are adopted children in our relationship to God in a sense. We have no bloodline birth right.

And if the class teachings really can't produce abundance, that's not a problem. All you then need to do is to change the definition of abundance. Just because the common sense definition of "having more than you need in every category" is so obvious, that doesn't matter. All the followers are used to brain washing techniques anyway. All you need to do is put on a fatherly (or motherly) air, and proclaim like you have great wisdom "abundance really is not talking about the physical side of life, but the spiritual side". Thus, you can be sickly, destitute, an outcast from your earthly family and social groups, on welfare, working for less than minimum wage, no health care, no job future, giving 20% of your non-income to TWI, and having every aspect of your life controlled - marriage, family relationships, money, hobbies, friends. But, you still have "spiritual abundance". They call darkness light, and light darkness. They are in their basest element liars.

Wouldnt' surprise me on the Pikes Peak Seminary. That organization was basically a 9 bedroom house that rented out rooms to people. A couple of ThD's got together and formed the seminary as a correspondance school. Sounds like an easy money business venture to me, capitalizing on their degrees to make money. I'm sure the standards for quality there were way lower, and more to the point, lacking the resources to detect plagiarism in any form. The other thing that stands out to me is VP's interest is ALL in the homiletics side. How to be a huckster. How to sell. Put together a spiel to make people feel better. Sell some snake oil.

Mix in an unhealthy dose of paranoia-induced conspiracy theory tendencies (Myth of 6 Million, Takeover based "Red Dawn" type exercises, etc.) and that pretty much sums it up.

Exxaccctly!!! You could have learned a lot about him if you would have watched the players who were as Americans put it "riding the pine", "sitting on the bench", and "second string". Hey? What's that guy doing? Oh, sitting down on the bench. Yeah, just like LCM's college football career :)