chockfull

Wow - socks got drawn out into our foolishness. I had a hard time deciphering this, but I think what you are saying is that "glossa" = tongue = language as a term definition that's consistent across scriptures. I'm still stuck on Raf providing ANY scripture as a basis for his beliefs so that we can discuss from a common ground outside of his ad hominems and consistent framing of the conversation to be talking about what everybody else is doing or believes and attacking it. So Raf, scriptures there buddy?

That's why I gave the HINT: about scripture. Because your typical pattern is NOT TO PROVIDE THAT OR ANY SUBSTANTIATION, but instead to engage in a further ad hominem attack on my beliefs. Like in this post. Ad hominem attack start to finish. And no substantiation for what you believe. This post is saying "you, you, you....". I mean, get over what I'm doing and what I believe. Start posting up substantiation for what YOU believe. Then you'll stop BEING A HATER.

Next, let's hear your explanation of the apparent scripture contradiction where on Pentecost they clearly understood the SIT, and your beliefs here that it would be normal for people in a worship setting not to understand the language. I already gave my explanation in detail.

Let's start there. Substantiated by scripture, or just a nice overall feeling that God should promise this? Hint: usually a question like this should be responded to with a scripture quote as opposed to an ad hominem attack on the person asking the question.

This reminds me of arguments I used to have with denominationalists over the trinity. I'd say what I believe is I Tim. 2:5. They would say "I have no problem with that scripture, I just have a problem with your belief. My response would say "my belief is simply what that scripture states clearly". 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; I would get a lot of sputtering going on after that, and people getting mad. Just like Raf is sputtering away here, and just as mad. My belief, ONCE AGAIN for those that need to read it over and over to understand is this: 1 Corinthians 14:2 or he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

And once again, why don't you, Raf, post up WHAT YOU BELIEVE on this, and let's measure your beliefs by the same yardstick. verse, context, situation applied to, etc. You just negatively attacking others beliefs is BEING A HATER. Especially when you offer no positive alternative. I mean what your posts on I Cor. 14:2 do isn't even ignoring the context, IT'S IGNORING THE VERSE. Applying to situations? Pentecost, and prayer. In I Cor. 14, the context shifts between public prayer and a prayer meeting and private prayer, back and forth. This is because it is instructing on SIT in both settings. What's at the center of this controversy is a "testable claim" that is "testable" only if you completely ignore what the definition of SIT in the epistle dedicated to clarifying it says. "Nobody understands". Clear definition, no ambiguity, no forgery, no context problems. So Raf, your position is calling God a fraud because He won't bend his definition to allow linguists to test it and egotists to spout off unchallenged. But sometimes He will reward the less obnoxious with a special miracle.

All Charismatic Christians deal with that question being pointed out. What about Pentecost? Clearly the term is the same "speaking in tongues". Pentecost has the context including all understanding the tongue, I Cor. 14 has the context where all do not understand the tongue. So it is an apparent contradiction in scripture, not some kind of "inconsistency in my opinion or viewpoint". What to do with it? I can understand Pentecost, and various anecdotes if they are telling the truth, as something God energizes for the people that is beyond what He guarantees in scripture. This is a miracle. Other scriptural examples include turning the clock back a number of degrees, Moses tablets, and on and on. Miracles aren't guaranteed, but happen as phenomenon in life. Healings are like this. Why do you see an instantaneous healing in one case, but nothing but the medical field in another? But I suppose you could have a viewpoint on that apparent contradiction like God is finicky and defines something in one place then takes it away without saying so anywhere else (cessationist). Or that God can't do miracles, and the Pentecost record is a forgery. Or any number of possibilities. So here instead of attacking me for one post, why don't YOU post up YOUR VIEWPOINT on why Acts 2 Pentecost has everyone understanding and I Cor. 14:2 has everyone not understanding. Then let the reader judge which seems more logical and scripturally accurate. Or I suppose you could keep being a hater and post up nothing substantive other than attacking my beliefs.

My position is a simple clear reading of the verse. This is not a tough verse. It says what it means right there in the verse. You already rejected all the anecdotes, so bringing them back in to bolster your point is dishonest. You know, kind of like "acting like a hater"????? And once again, God's miracles go over and above natural laws, and how things work normally. That doesn't invalidate the definition or the natural laws in any way.

Well, the "society" with the standards here consists of you and Raf. So really what I'm saying here is I'm not going to be held to a different standard than you guys are. If your "society"'s standards are so low, then maybe look to improve yourself rather than others. Oh, and the one finger / three finger deal right back at you with the Christian compassion arguments. It's totally HILARIOUS to me how people will routinely fail to recognize problem behavior in themselves but see it in others right away. Or the term "hater" could be referring to the more modern interpretation that doesn't involve Rodney King beatings. And you and your good buddy Raf can choose to draw lines at your leisure. However, you can't draw a different line for me than you draw for yourselves. "New English" definition of "nobody" now means "one guy". I'm sorry, to me "nobody" means exactly that, and encompasses basically ALL others. You not so much. You're the king of one-liners. You don't do much name-calling.

When basically one simple verse describes my beliefs clearly, and I have others calling that "one excuse after another", I think the term "hater" applies pretty appropriately. Maybe whine a little less and tell me one more time how a verse that says "when I speak in a tongue others don't understand" supports your position that linguists should be able to prove tongues produces a language. To me it seems pretty clear-cut that in the definition or major defining verses about SIT that "others" would include scientists. But hey, maybe we can do some Wierwillian shenanigans on that verse and it will open a window for you.

And in BOTH A and B, you have one guy speaking, and others not understanding. So regardless of the way you take it, both ways of taking it convey that. Neither the A or B interpretation lead you to "linguists should be able to understand SIT by pinpointing the language and documenting it for science". I mean when you remove the Wierwille-like trickeries as you point out, it's really not that difficult of a verse to understand. But I'll leave it to you rocket scientists to come up with the interpretation of that verse that says "for one who speaks in a tongue should be able to be put in a lab with a linguist and produce a language he is able to identify". I haven't read that in a "non-haters" commentary anywhere. But back to you guys....

For example, this entire post is non-substantive, not really contributing anything to the topic of SIT, TIP, Prophecy, but just whining about things in general. In other words, this post is a perfect example of "being a hater". Offensive language, insulting adjectives - look at them all "slippery slope, fallacy, predictable, disappointing, Darwinist". No substance. "Haters are as haters do" - Forrest Gump

Haters DOES describe behavior. It describes how people are acting. It is called "being a hater". It is a common term used in conversation in todays society. And apparently it hits REALLY close to home with you. Go figure.

Haters is describing the behavior. If someone isn't acting in that fashion then they have nothing to complain about. And if the mods are going to leave this thread open and allow YOU to continue to namecall and criticize, then it also has to be open for the same from the other side. I'll live with NO namecalling, and live with moderators locking this thread OR going back and editing ALL the posts where namecalling occurs. That's fair behavior. I suppose I'd also live with you developing a thick enough skin where you can take it as well as dish it out. I will not live in a hypocritical fashion where YOU are allowed to namecall, but I am not. And mods, if you are allowing this, you are not doing your job.

Once you remove the offensive language and terms from your posts I will consider your request. Until then, I'm just going to consider it in the category of "he can dish it out but can't take it".

"no man understands" or "no man understands him" - either phrase communicates the same thing. Someone speaks in a tongue, others don't understand. I know, REAL HARD TO COMPREHEND HERE. Nice try though. I knew I would give the haters a good time with this one!!!! So you have a different interpretation of I Cor. 14:2, where somehow it says others will understand? Please, enlighten us.

No, those are called miracles, which by definition go over and above standard definitions and behavior. Miracles also go over and above laws of physics, so no huge revelation there.

My read on this is that you think the "no man understands" portion of I Cor. 14:2 somehow doesn't apply to linguists. You expect that somehow linguists SHOULD be able to understand what is spoken, and if they can't that somehow proves it can't be done today. That's faulty logic. To me your problem is with what I Cor. 14:2 clearly states. And of COURSE you're going to try to frame the argument and conversation such that it doesn't look like you are challenging the Bible, because that doesn't look so good. But you ARE challenging the Bible. There's your logic problem again. I do take the promise of God and expect it to be fulfilled. I communicate with God, and no man understands. That promise IS fulfilled. I don't see a promise of God stating "SIT is a language". That would be a completely pointless promise. Promises of God are something that a believer can cling to for betterment of their life.

If you can twist up "no man understands him" into "the speaker will not understand himself" then perhaps reading comprehension is the root of your problem. If you take a step back and look at what that verse is trying to communicate, the primary idea of it is not making the point that tongues is a language. It's making the point giving instruction for SIT. Part of the instruction is that you are talking to God, the other part is that other people won't understand you while doing this. So I Cor. 14:2 is saying that when you SIT, you are communicating with God, and people won't understand. It is not making the point just because it uses the word "glossa" in it that the important part of the verse indicates that it is producing a real language spoken by someone living today. All of the argument over that verse is focusing on one word in the verse - "tongues", extracting it from its context, blowing it up out of proportion, and making the whole argument about that. No now we're going to the same point as we were previously. Trusting scripture, and using logic. I don't need "proof" to believe the Bible. If you do, then that's not my problem.

Or some people just trust that what I Cor. 14:2 says is accurate - that when you speak in tongues you don't speak to man, but to God, and no man understands. That is simple and clear in just about any Bible translation you care to look up. There is no accusation of anything around that verse not being genuine, like those that attack Mark 15 and say its a forgery. It is a simple, clear verse and that chapter has simple clear instruction. The only way the critics and haters try to get rid of this verse is by saying it applied then, but not today. I'll obviate the other hater logic which says that somehow we just aren't UNDERSTANDING this very clear verse properly. You're right. All I'm doing is reading it, noting that it's an epistle to the born-again believers after Christ's death thus it is to me, and believing it. I know that doesn't bode well for formulating huge strawman arguments to attack that verse, like linguists not finding languages and that supposedly being some kind of proof that tongues are fake, but that's all this whole thing is - man's ego, all setting something up to prove they are smarter than God. I've already explained this for those who are interested in trusting scripture and employing logic at the same time. Those who aren't interested in that, please feel free to ignore this post and continue on picking at logic and trying to prop up your linguists over scripture. By definition, if God says about tongues "no man understands", and if God is energizing the tongues to make them something special and spiritual outside of the ability of a human to make mouth noises, then God is well able to fulfill what He says in scripture to ensure a linguist will NOT find a language. Haters will call this an "excuse", but for my life, I choose to act as a "believer" who trusts scripture, not a "hater" who tries to break it. You see, God at His very nature will not overstep freedom of will, and God requires believing or faith out of His followers. As such, He doesn't really play the games of proving He exists or not, or proving scripture is reliable or not. For those who want to believe, there is that option. For those who want to argue about it, debate about it, try and break it, there is that option too. God isn't really interested in obtaining converts by the support of scientific proof of the spiritual. I'm sure this post will give the haters plenty of material to attack, so have at it

Guys, this conversation is getting to the point where it's not doing much for me anymore. I mean, basically we have me on one side of an argument, and then Raf, WordWolf, and geisha all jumping in with their viewpoints which oppose me. It's way too much work for me to have to refute a team of 3 all looking to poke holes in what I believe and am seeing in the research. I am neglecting other needful areas of my life all in exchange for a stupid argument on whether or not you can pray in tongues and not be a liar or a faker. My position and belief is that Corinthians is an epistle that applies to me. This is a mainstream Christian viewpoint. I've never heard except for the most extreme dispensationalists that Paul's letters are not for the modern Christian to study, apply and live life with. Thus Corinthians applies to me. Not to first century Christians, but somehow over 2000 years it all changed and none of it applies anymore. Corinthians is written to the church of the New Testament by extension from being addressed to a specific new Christian church in a given area. In Corinthians, I am instructed on gifts and manifestations of spirit. The instruction is pretty clear. It is clear enough that the questions I raise in linguistics research are similar to the ones that Charismatic Christians ask everywhere. There are no clear-cut proven answers in response to them, but it does seem that the majority of linguists who express an opinion on SIT are against it. So I may read this thread and read some of the research but at this point I am going to severely limit the amount of time I put into any aspect of it and am not going to post much here anymore. I am going to believe I Cor. 14, Corinthians, and my Bible as my standard for faith and practice. And I will evaluate man's facts and writings against that, and if there is a conflict, I'm going with scripture and my relationship with my Heavenly Father. I'll leave all the arguments about how many language phonomes you can fit on the head of a glossa sample to you guys. Have fun. Peace out.

geisha, your suggestion is appropriately condescending, simultaneously conveying a veiled concern while at the same time conveying that I am completely ignorant on the topic of linguistics to the point where simply a phone call to a linguist would clear all this up. What makes you think that #1 they would talk to me about the topic? and #2 that a casual conversation would somehow magically produce more substance in the methods they are using more than the peer reviewed journal articles that they are writing on the topic to maintain their tenure and advance their careers? Why don't you go to Amherst College, print up some of my objections to the general "research" on the topic and obtain comments and quotes on it from the linguists there? After all, it's your idea. The whole "God told me to tell you to do something" didn't work even when I was still in the Way ministry to have people dump off the work they didn't want to do themselves onto me.

OK, so this is a poorly written paper, similar to the one by the college student I mentioned. I brought up the same point you did about the sources of the paper being more reliable than the writing itself. Raf completely rejected that as a source, continuing to point out the guy was writing a college thesis. This paper, the first entry in the SIT Online Reading room, basically is almost exactly the same thing. A guy has 3 references to Samarin, two from a book that we haven't read, and the third from the article we are dissecting. The questions raised by me are raised in that paper. Why? Because there is an OBVIOUS contradiction between what linguists are concluding and what the Bible says about the topic. I'll comment on some of them. So here, the premise I'm measuring this against is I Cor. 14:2 when someone speaks in a tongue others don't understand. Here, a linguist with a PhD answers this question by saying "that is not ENTIRELY a valid argument". Note the use of language here. He is not saying "that argument is complete BS, bunk, malarkey". He is saying it is not entirely valid. So his conclusion is that argument is PARTIALLY valid. He brings up a valid point that part of linguistics involves "family trees" of language. The Romance languages, for example, have common Latin roots. The Russian languages have similarities. The Indian dialects have similarities. Most of the "trees" of language develop in similar geographic locations. Many linguists have familiarity with a certain tree of languages, so would be able to identify if they thought a glossa sample had words in that "family tree" of language. His opinion on the matter is if you ran a glossa sample by ALL of these people you could get coverage on MOST of the world's languages. Does this prove modern SIT doesn't produce a language? Not by any means. Another common objection and one I also brought up. By the definition in the Bible of SIT, you can include extinct languages. Stahike states here that in his OPINION you COULD test whether a language was a valid sample of an extinct language. What he leaves out there is this is just speaking in the terms of possibilities. He has never done this. And a SIT speaker WOULD NOT be able to tell Stahike WHICH EXTINCT LANGUAGE they were speaking in. So to actually prove this is a lot harder than Stahike is saying here, specifically if it is not known what extinct language to look for. Siemens basically states his experience. He is not offering this comment in ANY WAY as a refutation that he can prove SIT doesn't produce an extinct language. This is interesting, both for terminology and this argument. MOSTLY, NONE of the linguists quoted here stating their OPINION on the matter have done ANY WORK AT ALL ON THIS. This is where my "shoddy research" comments come in. Read the Newberg paper for what constitutes "reliable research". The extent of the work I see is opinion - "I can't recognize this, and I'm a linguist, so it must not be a language". That doesn't cut it. Samarin is the one exception here. In the article we are referencing, on p. 56 on he writes up SOME of the detail of what this means. He took glossa samples and mapped them to a consonant map. The words "phonemic strata", and "phonomes" - what do these mean? This is speaking of a breakdown of sounds. Samarin gives insight into this. The "sound breakdown" of analyzing a glossa basically involves mapping a breakdown of sounds into their component parts - consonants and vowels. The work Samarin records in his paper on this is that the English language contains 16 consonant sounds. I'm not sure of how they classify this, as the English language has 5 vowels and 20 consonants. Which, by the way, is exactly the same number and letters and consonants that the Latin language has. So Samarin maps the consonant sounds he hears in a glossa sample, and reaches the results that the sample covered 12 of the 16 major consonants in English. He notes that is a higher number of sounds he's hearing that would correspond with English than would correspond to another language. He then draws the conclusion that the samples more match the consonant patterns for English than other known languages. The sentence right after that, he notes that this consonant map would not only apply to English, but "about 5 other languages". Having read about language relationships, it's easy to point out that English consonants share the same sound and letters as the root language Latin does. Also, all of the Romance languages - Latin, or Neo-Latin derived (Spanish, Portugese, French, Italian) ALL share the same consonant maps. I'm going to drill into this a little more because Raf seems to think this is some huge revelation of why linguists don't look harder to identify languages. He wants to draw the conclusion that it's because they aren't languages, rather than the explanation that proving a negative is hard, and the linguists really don't have the time or effort to put into proving this absolutely, so they remain satisfied with just stating their educated opinion on the topic and writing about unproven conclusions. So back to the "phonemic strata" and the analysis of "phonomes". Let's drill into this a little more. Let's take a short phrase that everyone has heard ole VP speak on tape thousands of times - "lo shanta ka malakacita". How would we go about proving this is not a language? Break down the "phonomes" and look at a consonant map. We have the following consonants - "l, sh, nt, k, m, c, t". There are 7 consonant patterns there. We compare those against English and see they have the same pattern. Then we have a choice. We can notice that those consonant patterns ALSO would apply to Spanish, French, Portugese, Italian, or any of their language ancestor roots and dialects that they descended from (I'll submit to you that 16th century English would largely not be understood to this audience). So now all of a sudden I can't "prove" that Nida making the big fat claim that the glossa is English "phonomes" only. Because it equally could be Spanish, French, Portugese, or Italian by the methods you are using to investigate. (I'm not saying the glossa IS these languages, I would think if someone produced a glossa in perfect modern Italian that would be easily recognized. But say a predecessor to Italian, like 16th century Italian - or earlier. That may not be detected. You just CANNOT rule out those possibilities from a proof perspective). So this is the type of detail that I'm getting to when I drill into it. And the deeper I look the less I see these guys "conclusions" and "opinions" as matching the facts coming out of the work they are doing. But here's a challenge for linguists. Take that phrase above and prove it isn't a language. We have a PFAL tape where you can see VP speaking it. SIT "IS" non communicative from a human to human perspective. God already says the other won't understand unless it's interpreted. What does this add? NOTHING!!! Or the "constituent sub-codes" (love the geek speak) of ALL THE OTHER ROMANCE LANGUAGES AND THEIR ANCESTOR LANGUAGES. He's just not stating that. But Samarin did. Besides the same argument which also applies here to the other Romance languages, there's another rub to this. God never claims he is re-engineering a person's vocal chords to energize SIT. So the person is still doing the speaking. It's a known fact that foreign language speakers have trouble pronouncing some "phonomes". Like native Chinese speakers can't form "l"s and "r"s correctly. In fact, you can hear fluent English speakers with this problem, due to their native language background. There is no way that you can rule out a person is SIT in a real language with a bad foreign accent and issues pronouncing some of the "phonomes" they are not familiar with making the sounds for. Interesting but non-conclusive. See above. So let me see SIT people speak with an accent and repeat short phrases over and over. Oh, yes, this ABSOLUTELY PROVES THEY ARE NOT SPEAKING A REAL LANGUAGE. It couldn't be that they are apeaking a foreign language with an accent, and the message God is energizing are short repetitive phrases of praise in that language. He has an opinion there. And he's done some work. But that sentence is about as far from being proven as you can get. And that's from the evidence he presented in the same paper of the work he did on the topic. That's the paper where he talks about consonant maps. You know, papers like this Holton guy wrote are tedious to deal with. All they are is an amalgamation of opinion statements with no detail behind them. You know, even if it was the most popular opinion of linguists that modern SIT doesn't produce a language, is that still enough to discard scripture's teaching and accept them? Here's another field - creationism vs. evolution. Largely the vast majority of history experts (with PhD's, titles, books, etc.) all support the evolution theory and reject the creationist theory. They present evidence, like Darwin's "Voyage of the Beagle" where he got funding for a ship and a science experiment, sailed around the world, and noted that animals on the Galapagos Island chain exhibited characteristics of adaptation to their environment. So that's a great reason I should reject Creationism and the story in Genesis, and just accept their vastly superior intellect to mine and say I was lying about Creation and now I'm admitting that man got here evolving from an ape? Or should I retain my mental facilities and ask Darwin further questions surrounding adaptation between species and families?

I don't have a confidence in the field of linguistics beyond my confidence in God and scripture. As it is produced by man, I am free to examine the result, the studies, the methods used, read the papers, and evaluate them. I don't trust them or mistrust them prejudicially. I am looking at their fruit - what they produce - their written studies. I agree neither case is proved. I highlighted my issues with stating "it most certainly can be" above. This is reasonable mostly. Where I diverge from your conclusion is the "leans in one direction" quote. I'm certain this is not a scientific phrase that carries scientific meaning. I don't think the leaning phrase belongs in together with "testable evidence" at all. Yes our anecdotes aren't testable currently. I don't know if we'll ever run across one of these accounts where you could actually track down the people involved, but it's possible. Then it would be more documented, but probably still not testable. Now if what you are trying to say here is that the research papers we have read largely "lean in one direction" with the opinion they state and the conclusions they draw, I would agree with that statement. But the lack of solid evidence presented to me shows the "leaning" to be "bias" as opposed to "scientific results". Yes, and every single one of the linguists stop short of saying "I couldn't understand it therefore no human ever could have understood it". Because they know that statement is demonstrably false and easily challenged. I don't think the main alphas in the field of linguistics are trying to say they can comprehensively do this. I saw Samarin do some basic examples of this, but all he used were consonant maps, then compared an English consonant map (speakers native tongue) with the glossa they produced. He found that the glossa covered 12 of 16 English consonants, then noted that the majority of those also would represent the Romance Languages. Where a I doing this? Was it in Landry's paper he referred to Samarin's experiments and the two known gibberish examples? Instead of the ad hominem attack there, wouldn't it be better to note that he had 4 of Samarin's books in his Bibliography, so until you've checked those footnotes and resources, it's not a bad assumption to think that since he has read them and we have not that he might be accurate in his quote? Even if it was a Jr. High term paper, all we are relying on there is whether or not the quote and paraphrased section describing Samarin's work accurately reflect Samarin's work.

I thought Poythress wrote up that the linguists involved in whatever he was writing up were able to identify two samples of known gibberish inserted in to whatever experiment was that was going on that he didn't provide the details or writeup on. But yes, an elaborate fakery would be hard to prove as false, and UNLESS LINGUISTS DEVELOP THIS ABILITY SOMEHOW with language identification, no it can't be proven glossolalia samples are not language. I don't know how much there is going on in the field of linguistics on this front, but with the compute power we have available there may be some advances available. Yes, your example of muhs could very well be a word for Christ in a language that no one has heard since Genesis Tower of Babel times. That is implicit in how the Bible defines speaking in tongues. I'm not like trying to "rob you of an ability to say anything other than what you think". I'm just studying a topic defined in the Bible, according to the fields of science that mankind has related to that topic. I didn't pick the topic, I didn't pick the field of science that applies to it. And I think that if you go back and read my posts more carefully, I am NOT demanding proof of this. What I am demanding is people not lie and be hypocritical by saying something is "proven" over and over again when it clearly is NOT PROVEN. And that includes the people writing studies on it. Whether you are being nice or not with the "demand for proof" - trying to steer clear of the "how dare you" terminology that adds nothing to the content of the message - does not change the fact that yes, proving the positive side of this argument that SIT does produce a language could be done by taking a group of known samples of glossolalia where you have write-ups on test subjects to include a short bio and background of language exposure, then submitting the samples out to the world to see if just one of them could be identified. With one positive verifiable result, the positive side of this is proven. So does this mean it's fair to shift the burden of proof over to say "make that happen or I've proven tongues is not a language"? No that is not fair. I submit that if you agree in your theology or beliefs that God cannot lie, then the rule that God made up for what SIT is includes the fact that when one man speaks, the other listeners don't understand unless it is interpreted. Read I Cor. 14:2 again: I Cor. 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Here as part of how speaking in tongues defines itself in the Bible, we see God saying that when you SIT, no man understands. We also see as part of the definition that you are speaking to God. This is where the prayer life interpretation angle comes in. Also, as part of that you are "speaking mysteries", whatever your interpretation of that entails. So I submit if you have your perfect test case, where one person speaks in a tongue and one other or many others in the room understand, then that perfect test case contradicts what I Cor. 14:2 says about tongues. How do we get around the fact that people DEFINITELY understood on Pentecost, and that contradicts I Cor. 14:2?? The explanation we have is that for miracles, God can go over and above His normal laws. All normal occurrences of SIT would be subject to the laws. How do we also explain the anecdotes of socks and don here, and other similar stories? To note that the anecdote COULD be a miracle like Pentecost was, or that people were mistaken or the lying and faking accusation too.