chockfull

I personally think the term "cult" appropriately carries warning signs to avoid the "leaven of the Pharisees" and the "doctrine of the Pharisees". In modern terminology there are many kinds of cults, including the MLM cults all about money, religion, politics, and self-help cults. The whole Momentus movement incorporated in by that one splinter group is a great indicator. Mix up a little TWI cult action with a little self-help cult action and get a whole stirred-up mass of confusion. "Cult" is about abuse. It's about robbing the little people of any dignity, self-respect, and autonomy that they normally would have in a healthy society. It's about replacing a healthy society with a little army of robots, robot-thinking and response, and denial of self all for the goals of the cult. Cult leaders have to be pied pipers able to promise the return of great things in exchange for giving up your freedom and self respect. A cult's ONLY power over you is their authority. And they only have that authority because an individual gives it up. Once you are no longer willing to give up the authority over your life and family to an abusive overseer, they have no power. However, that's when they get ugly - with all their ex-communications in whatever form they want to call them, peer pressure, series of confrontations, etc. In fact, that's a great way to tell a cult - how adept would you say the leader is in the myriad of different ways used to bully and silence the little people? In true Christianity, the lowest of the low have a voice. In a cult, the only voice anyone has is the sound of the leaders' voice in their head.

Because unlike the story of Jezebel, there is no one to throw the witch over the wall. And no one holding the city hostage.

still regretting throwing out a pristine vinyl collection. total TWI BS - take a common-sense practice (don't be a hoarder / spring cleaning) and cement it in history with the name of a founder. I wonder if we counted up the value of stuff burned at these days if there wasn't a better way. nowadays we have ebay and craigslist.

While questioning the source of Craigs homophobic tendencies is hilarious, I don't know how accurate it is. I mean after all, throughout his "men in tights" time in Athletes he was much too preoccupied with banging the seed of the serpent actress to have much time to develop his gay gene.

I think the "occupy" movement was kind of intended to protest this type of thing. It had a lot of grassroots support but never got specific enough to enact change. But its an age-old story of human weakness - the thing of Greek tragedies, where power corrupts and the few in power use the many without power. The only universal thread in that is that God is on the side of the downtrodden, abused, poor, those without power. I think if we investigated the psych field and dug into details of that as well as PTSD that we would definitely see parallels and potential for disorders developing. In fact, the emotional trauma and damage done to former followers of TWI is probably the clearest evidence you will find that TWI operates like a cult and always has.

Well, I don't know. Yes this place is one-sided, in that active posters generally are not active TWI members, but people recovering from previously being active TWI members. (oh yes I know the play on words where these don't exist and there are no active members). Also, with the facts and stories that have come out about VPW's plagiarism and adultery, people tend to judge him on that alone. That is not unique. Look at Lance Armstrong in the news. The golden boy 7 time Tour de France champ who overcame cancer and wrote an inspirational best-seller called "It's Not About the Bike". However, interviews with people that lived around him uncovered some very deep character flaws. He cheated. The races he competed in he got disqualified because he cheated. And that's people's view about him now. And it is an appropriate view. It's just and fair. Look there's a verse in Timothy that says "I so run that I obtain". The word obtain and the context carries the connotation that you strive lawfully so that you are not disqualified from your race. VPW ran a race being a minister and starting a ministry. He has been disqualified in that race for illegally using his competitors work and for taking advantage of his young female followers. This means that he did not win the race, no matter how badly people want to make excuses for him. He lost. DQ. So whatever we salvage from our TWI experience, VP's teachings, and whatever we decide to do with continuing on participating in groups that may or may not use his work, it behooves us not to bury our head in the sand concerning what happened in the race.

I am not so sure those two questions are mutually exclusive. Discussions that are rude, bitter, and contain hyperbole are human interactions and expressions of emotion. All of those help me, not just the nicer ones. Expressing yourself and participating in conversations absolutely helps recovery - mine, and others. yes others participation helps me, even if they have a completely opposite viewpoint. due to the nature of twi and the nature of how you exit twi, yes absolutely there will be bitterness. there really is no leaving a cult saying "no hard feelings everyone - I'm going to go find a church that better fits me and our family". in every single case I have seen there is confrontation and slander involved. so expressing yourself and conversing are how you work through the bitterness and get over it. Oh and of course while you do that inevitably there will be a "miserable comforter" around pointing out the fact that you are bitter and that you are just hurting yourself and don't pay attention to the people's evil that got you there. backing those people off is helpful in recovery. the article talks about readers comments influencing news interpretation. I'm sure as a blanket assessment you could say that at GSC any news about TWI will probably end up producing negative reader comments. but when you look at twi's practices it's very clear that any TWI news will have been whitewashed 70x to remove any possible negative connotation anyway. so negative reader comments here are about the only place you get actual disclosure to the truth that is going on. this is a lot different than a presidential state of the union address followed by "interpretations" by both parties that obscure the facts. this actually helps uncover the facts.

Dang. In TWI you know you're screwed when the Pope retires and yet Rosalie still putters along microcontrolling everything at 74...

and if you massacre the heart of a potluck like that, what do you think more important gatherings are going to be like? sheesh that's like a description of every single twi meeting ever. how vomit inducing. I mean "How to have a teaching service" is similar: STS vs. Jesus walking along a shoreline then cruising out in a boat when crowds gathered. somebody is really missing the point.

yes, they thought we were in a cult. perhaps they were right. Totally untrue. Fundmentalist is a specific term that describes mainstream Christians that believe the written Word of God has authority. Fundamentalism spans denominations, and specifically describes only that belief. Regarding the trinity, yes that is a relic belief still accepted. And years after his death, VPW still has impact in keeping his followers separated out from the rest of mainstream Christianity over this. Is that uniting or dividing the body of Christ? That's what's measured on its own merit. And now all that stuff is on the internet (i.e. in Wikipedia) and all over like this site. That sounds like something Rosalie would say. VP or any leaders' morality isn't the issue, the issue is the Word and whether you stand on it or not. So come on back to TWI and stand with us for the Word's sake. johniam please point out to me the flaw in that viewpoint, and why you would not return to TWI.

I totally agree that VP taught people to have a Jesus Christ identity crisis. The trinity is too mystical and a relic of history. Most modern Christians say they believe it, but when talking details sure easily see the distinction between God and His Son Jesus. VP singled out that doctrine, in a sense constructed a strawman argument, then drove a wedge between his followers and pretty much any mainstream church teaching the trinity with his book, teachings, and overall attitude. After a long exposure to VP's doctrine, the practical effect was that most ex-TWI members don't feel comfortable in a church where the trinity is accepted, which is pretty much most of them. If that isn't being an enemy of Jesus Christ while proporting to teach the truth about him I don't know what is. If that logic is too hard to follow, ask yourself this - what attitude do/did you have towards other Christians? A look down the nose at how stupid they are because they accept a relic doctrine? A "lesser" Christian? Someone "not in the household" thus uninformed and lesser of a Christian? I readily admit to all of those attitudes. I'm sure a TWI shill would say that's my problem not TWI's. You're right. It is. But when I trace it back to its roots it is TWI doctrine and attitude that instilled it into me.

He had a similar story of writing the holy spirit book - recorded in elena whiteside's TWLIL. Took a week or so - checked into a hotel, and wrote the entire book in that time. With VP it's not necessarily a lie - you just don't know the whole truth, like during the week he was "writing" the majority of it was copying JE Stiles book. So my money is on us not having found the source yet.

I ran plenty of fellowships for decades for TWI and more. We never talked about cheating on our wives either. We never heard of the doctrine they held and practiced at BOD level. However, now that I know I am faced with a decision. I can enable the sin and wrong doctrine, or I can stand against it. Shoot - even current TWI denounces it at least in private because they want to whitewash VP's image in public. Sooner or later you're going to have to come to grips with the verse where Jesus teaches you can't put new wine into old wineskins. Chris Geer, even just judging on what he wrote in the POP paper, is an extreme megalomaniac and a bully. I find it extremely difficult to buy that his delusional self-images of grandeur and his psychological makeup have reversed themselves 180 degrees. Plus, I find it highly likely that chris himself participated in the promulgation of adultery, and possibly rape and the administration of drugs to allow VP's practices. As such I would not accept him as a Christian teacher. The organization VP founded, and the sin that it was founded upon, gave way to the rise of an organization where all forms of evil were free to function. That organization enslaved, bullied, and damaged many lives. VP's teaching and more than his teaching his example taught more than his words, and allowed evil to stack up. The evil they lived negates the words of their mouths. Their example speaks louder when their words. Have you not read Jesus teaching that you know men by their fruit, not their words?

Infallible logic. Plus, all the sin is very well hidden. I was in leadership for years and the only exposure I had to the adultery stuff was Craig being removed. Then the Corps got confronted by Rosalie for knowing about that stuff but not speaking up. But I didn't know about it before. But she did.

Wow - amazing perspective. In this you can see that TWI is a lot like doing drugs. The end result is finding emotional growth stunted into your middle-aged years.

Sure - we all move on. With different timings, paces, ideas. Things cycle here as well. The nature of forums is such that it's either going to be dead or there is going to be a flame war going on. Forums of all natures seem to cycle between the two, and a balance of that is probably normal for a forum. The flame wars are tedious, mostly to those reading, and to those posting too. However, beyond the cycling of activity on the forum I always remember the purpose of the forum. The Way International's morning cup of reality. And ANYONE with even a remote attachment to or involvement with TWI needs a morning cup of reality. The whole cult functions with a remarkable aversion to any type of reality other than the one they manufacture. I have moved on. But I still post as part of my volunteer Christian service to help others who, like myself, desperately need that morning cup of reality.

We are not isolating bad things VP did as though good things didn't exist. We are presenting both sides of the story. VP only presented the good side, and lied and covered up the bad side, including firing people who taught it was wrong. Remember the adultery paper? Remember John Schoenheit sharing his story about just wanting the Word to get out and influence people, then finding himself fired, excommunicated, and slandered? You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities. All we are doing is holding up the standard of what the Bible says leadership should be in our day and time. "husband of one wife" is pretty clear as a leadership standard. Serial adultery would be violating God's Word as a standard for leadership. Having an unwritten doctrine of serial adultery for the leaders in a ministry is sin. So apparently you have a problem with the Bible and its "moral superiority". You see Christianity is based upon knowing the truth and the truth setting you free. If a man's words prove that he does not know the difference between truth and lie, then it is impossible for him to come to the truth, as the words of truth won't be recognized. It's not the truth's fault, it's the man's fault for conditioning his conscience to lies, and developing a conscience seared with a hot iron. There are higher standards for leaders. That's why Jesus taught it was better to have a millstone hung around your neck and you be drowned than as a leader using your spiritual authority to hurt those lesser than you.

Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Adultery is sin. A continued practice and doctrine of adultery among a leadership group is sin. It is not moral superiority to state this. Look - the vast majority of businesses seem to be able to run without this type of doctrine traversing their top executive ranks. A Christian organization is supposed to offer people something better than an example of ongoing and indoctrinated sin, and at that a worse moral example than your average non-Christian organization. The disturbing part of this paragraph is you putting VP in parallel to Moses, David, and Paul. VP was a plagiarist and a serial adulterer. He even used the record of David's story to introduce wrong doctrine - that all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king, and that adultery in the Bible didn't mean what VP practiced, but instead a "spiritual" adultery consisting of removing yourself from under VP's authority, or "not standing". God's ways are higher than our ways is a nice little trite statement trying to introduce mysticism in to where there really isn't a place for mysticism. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God's higher ways here would include seeing through the sheep costume and smelling wolf. Perhaps one day you will aspire to this rather than making excuses and deifying and enabling sinners. You didn't ask the right question here. That would be "God didn't talk to VP and tell him to teach the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century and confirm it with a snowstorm?" And the answer to that one would be ONE BIG FAT NO!!!!!! That was all VP hype and lies, and none of God. If Stan Musial didn't use his spiritual authority to have sex with young women with devastating consequences, then in my book he was a better man than VP. And I am not "judging him after man's judgement". I am judging him by the very standard he purported to teach - God's Word. And if you don't do that, you are an enabler, and share some responsibility in the sin.

Rosalie's goals are vastly different than VP's "Word Over the World". I've heard several repeated private in-person comments that seem to indicate her goal is to make HQ "Self Sufficient", meaning not needing income from any followers around the world to stay going. Already internationally the only money coming in is bookstore sales. The $$ stay in the country. So mostly HQ is funded by USA members. (On a side note, it's a ludicrous claim that they don't have any members. The $$$ support them, they want to stay in control of them, etc.) The old bag's main goal seems to be preserve the cash and drive everyone else out that doesn't share a vision of her as a matriarchal substitute for Jesus Christ.

Agreed, and awesome link.

Scripture also talks of Pharisees, whose protoges are threefold the children of hell they are. VP is the living epitome of this verse. His protoges - Craig and then Rosalie sure fit the bill described there.

Just thought that if we are quoting Proverbs that the verses regarding advice concerning adultery might be appropriate. Even better if the top TWI leadership knew and practiced these verses like other verses describing leadership qualities in Timothy PRIOR to founding a ministry...

Proverbs 7:22 "He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks."

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Jane, I have noted this pattern all the way up to the BOD. The leadership thinking IMO that has crept in is that it is "OK" to lie to people, to hide information, and to cover all based upon that verse "that the ministry be not blamed". They equate Paul's actions of refusing to live off of offerings amongst more immature Christian churches to avoid accusations of conflict of interest to justify their lying, cheating, stealing and trading in human flesh. BOD members will lie directly to your face. Know that. If they will, then it is the rare specimen that you would find at the Region and Limb level that would not do that. Also know that those "inner circles" is where they will lie less to each other. I don't mean not lie. I mean lie less. And yes, as you describe, the "corporate culture", or "ministry culture" in TWI is that your life is supposed to be an open book to your leader. Which means if you lie like they do, it is not so that "the ministry be not blamed", it is spiritual contamination. And they think that somehow they are "standing in the gap" for God. They will have a rude awakening when their life review is underway at the return and Jesus Christ points out all their hypocrisy and abuse.