chockfull

Of course there was horror. However, my policy always was the "nunya" policy. In other words, it was a rare occasion where anyone in leadership ever knew anything about who I was dating. Therefore my only horror was in figuring out the appropriate strategy to get dumb leaders the f out of what definitely was not any of their business.

I am entirely not ready to take on evolution and homosexuality as a serious discussion and addition to this thread. Hence, I kind of avoided those two topics. Also, I think johniam uses things like that to expand the scope of the discussion to get everyone arguing. I mean I personally subscribe to what I feel is a healthy blend of science and spirituality. I don't want to personally always take one over the other. Science is amazing and true and the discovery of the world we live in and how to understand what God has created. Spirituality (I'm using that term to encompass an understanding of the Bible as well as a relationship with the Creator and JC) enriches life, allows you to live by faith, gives you a firm compass. I can't live without either. If you only subscribe to science you have no idea how small the entire knowledge of man is. And it's easy to mistakenly get so attached to it we don't realize maybe Thomas Edison hasn't invented the light bulb yet in the particular field we are looking into. (Actually I think you do realize this regarding our SIT topic - that more science needs to happen - I realize this too). If you only subscribe to spirituality (and I'm lumping this together) - meaning your interpretation of the Bible, prayer, JC. and totally disregard the laws of science, you become nothing more than driven by feelings. As we've evidenced in this thread, it's easy to be duped, dupe yourself, others. And there is no consistency and standard. I'm sure this topic was debated in one of Dan Brown's novels between the Illuminati and the Jesuits.

Not personally aware of that exact statement but it sounds contextually like something Ted Patrick would say as brainwashing was a common criticism. I mean I may have heard a relative mutter that semi under their breath at one point while I was in. Yes it's a big distinction but it could be someone stating that just for dramatic effect rather than literally meaning ALL vs. really thinking it's the potential to be brainwashed. And yes, yes anyone who signs up for a college course on Shakespeare is brainwashed. They either get over it or start talking in Elizabethan English, move to southern Cali, and work in the food service industry. Sorry I'm stereotyping again.

Some people might take the stance if you're doing it wrong then it could hinder your answers to prayer. I am more of the thought that God cares about us and looks past all our puny human thoughts to help us because He loves us. And smiles at our immaturity.

I like conversing with you. You are honest. I read this and think who among us hasn't done this kind of barometer smoke test about beliefs? I remember all this type of logic running around my brain when making the decision to either stay or leave TWI. What I couldn't get past was the fruit evidenced in the leadership I was interacting with, to include the higher-ups, and most markedly the BOD. So my prayers led to a clear path. I think one of the problems you are facing with is similar to many who used to be in TWI. Depending on when they left, and how much they actually saw of VP's fruit of his life, kind of sets the pace for how revered VPW is in what are called "splinter groups" or fellowships. I've seen several of those types of groups, ranging from one fellowship to a group of fellowships. One in particular close to me I know about are absolutely reverential about VP's teachings, and feel that LCM and then Rosalie ruined the ministry, so they left and are carrying on the true "heart of VP" unlike the corrupted people running TWI now. Many of these groups usually have an ex-Corps member leading them, and that person or persons while they may have great intentions they usually tie in financial to it where they now are drawing a salary, or being "tithed" to. Maybe some of the better ones wouldn't take that and would use the finances to help the needy, but most do. I've seen a couple miniature splinter cults where the leader draws a salary, is nice and loving, but does things like walk into someone's house without knocking and expect people to wait on them as they are the spiritual leader. Things that illustrate that they do not have normal boundaries. Your particular fellowship may be a cool place to hang out. Maybe the leader is chill and genuine. Maybe there is just a loving fellowship, some Bible study, and finances are handled appropriately. Is this bad? No. It's a real problem where ex-Way people can go after they leave for spiritual needs and fellowship. If yours works great. But it is also burying your head in the sand to not acknowledge an inappropriately reverent attitude towards a man whose fruit is very evidently rotten. Not the doctrine he taught in public. But the doctrine he taught, enforced, and lived in private. That doctrine and the behavior it fostered ruined many people's lives. There is clear evidence of that here at GSC.

Critics lumped in VPW with other contemporaries like Jim Jones and other cult leaders, who all shared the same characteristic that they could pontificate on "God's Word" for hours and hours on end. Was it really "God's Word" they were teaching? When you analyze content it seems they all had in common convincing followers that they were the savior on earth somehow, confirmed by visions like snow on gas pumps. Calling themselves prophets, they took advantage of followers in immoral and criminal ways. This is not "God's Word", this is "Their words". There is a big difference, and one mark of brainwashing is the inability to distinguish the difference. Am I glad that I spent more time in the Bible in TWI? Yes I am. Do I see the doctrine taught as evidenced over years in the development of the fruit it produced? Yes I do. And that fruit is putrid. You tell me how Jesus told us to evaluate men's teachings and words if you want to talk about "God's Word".

Westboro Baptist Church members seem to run into this type of contradiction all the time, what with wisdom and behavior they feel others are engaged in that "contradicts God's Word". They run into this type of contradiction a whole lot more than your average Christian. Saying something "contradicts God's Word" usually means it contradicts someone's narrow-minded doctrine and view.

Because then there would be no distinguishing difference between "life wisdom" and "over 100 years of collective spiritual wisdom on the BOD" ??? Somehow I don't think years of kissing bootie, playing politics, and throwing people under a bus do a whole lot for building wisdom.

He wasn't the devil. He was just a weak man who never developed academic discipline thus took the plagiarist way out, and an unfaithful husband who taught a doctrine of adultery to his inner circle and practiced it. I guess what stemmed from those two things probably gave the devil plenty to work with though. There are others around who really like to make excuses for that stuff, so that they can continue to use his pithy statements as wisdom to live by. That's kind of weak too. I guess the "wisdom of the world", which includes commandments like "Thou shalt not commit adultery", and "Thou shalt not steal" is just something we don't really need to live by. Why would we need that kind of wisdom when we can understand true spiritual wisdom, not wisdom of the world like God really meant "spiritual adultery" meaning "not standing on the Word" meaning not trusting VP's double-talk?

It shouldn't be. Of course it is if people are trying to impress someone in public, thus need to invent something more intellectual sounding. So the people seeing the miracle would trust Moses instructions rather than just freaking out? So that the city inhabitants that had been trash talking all got the correct picture about who was winning? While I do subscribe to a child-like trust of God, the sheer evidence of the potential for fraud perpetuated by men mean that you need to question things, and be what is the phrase? "wise as serpents harmless as doves". Without that people's opinion would be like I saw on TV on the "Hatfields and McCoys" - a little girl died and all the surrounding religious people were saying it was God's will. This type of thing involves critical thinking. Critical thinking is a little harder to come by when you are a walking encyclopedia of VPW "Lifelines" quotes.

Any man who still had the word "no" in his vocabulary?

All right - one serious comment. I will say that over the course of this thread, I have become a lot more aware of the potential and likelihood for fraud associated with this topic. I'm reminded of VPW's story of first SIT in TWLIL. He went to a convention, was up on stage with Oral Roberts and some others. They tried to help him SIT. He spoke a few words of some known languages and perpetuated a fraud. (After that was his experience with JE Stiles, where he had the life-changing experience - the one where an important part of the story is stating that "no woman was going to be around when he manifested, and that women can't be trusted" - some of his misogynistic comments.) In many ways maybe VP was subconsciously telling the real story. He saw the impact Oral was having, wanted some for himself, and perpetuated a fraud to have greater power and influence. We got swept up in it, and anyone having a genuine experience probably was the exception not the rule. And the Pharisee doctrine that engulfs what was taught around the topic is well able to easily engulf and taint the experience itself. And yes, VPW, despite your false doctrine and teachings, it is fairly easy to counterfeit that experience. On the more jovial side of the conversation, have you led any more people you've met on the street into SIT the contrived way? Which, BTW, does show you a whole lot about what's possible. Thx for that.

I would have to enact the one beer per argument rule, which would only take us to about page 103 or so :biglaugh:/>

Hoping that my reply takes it to page 100 YES!!!!!

I think we are all trying to come to a recognition of the difference between the genuine Spirit of God and Wierwille's Phariseeism which has not gotten any better with his successors. I think what Wierwille taught on manifestations was definitely rote and mechanical. And it got worse with Burton's class. I can see why people would reject it and go 100% in the opposite direction. For myself, I feel I have gravitated more towards focusing on the relationship aspect of prayer and worship (and surrounding topics). To me I get more out of it looking at it like that as opposed to all the mechanics and rules and regulations. And I feel like dragging back down into those details doesn't do anything for me - it just leads to comparisons between people which I think is dumb anyway. I find it hilarious that a child-like mispronunciation of the common term "hocus pocus" - a magician phrase was hijacked by Wierwille, imitated by thousands, and turned into Biblical doctrine on the occult. For our next Advanced Class session, make sure all you kids have your Crayons.

I'm thinking late '70's - maybe around the AC '79? Anyone with clearer memory?

We're all putting the pieces together, brother. Good to see you.

My conclusion is the Intermediate class was invented by Pharisees, promoted by Pharisees, and taught by Pharisees. What can they teach you to do? Well, according to the Bible, they can teach you to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. And that is, IMO, exactly what they teach people to do in this field in the Intermediate class.

I think this is a common theme to people leaving the ministry. Bondage and fear over TWI's convoluted doctrine on debt. God pulling things together in spite of our fears. Deliverance. People just don't realize the bondage that you are under listening to TWI and obeying what they say. Many times it takes the shock of something personal for people to wake up to this. You realize that they (the leaders) certainly aren't living the way they are demanding you live. And you notice they don't really have much concern at all for you or your family. They simply actively demonstrate how much they don't care. Then you realize that the only reason they have any authority over you at all is because you let them. They you leave from under that authority. Then you realize that whatever authority it was they were lording over you with, it was certainly not instituted by God. Then freedom ensues. About a month after we left I walked in to look at a house - just looking at options to get out of that stupid rental with all those memories about TWI people abusing us as guests in our home. I walked in this one place and walked through it and just felt this incredible sense of peace. Like peace I never had in the rental. I felt I could live there. So we did. God came through with finances even though we had no savings due to supporting all of those bloodsucking leech Pharisees in TWI for so many years at our own expense. Over the years living here we've formed great friendships with neighbors, loved the local schools, had many great cookouts that no TWI people were invited to, and built a new life. With real friends, not fake. With a real community, not fake. So Twinky, I'm glad for you. I'm glad for myself. I'm sad for the people that haven't experienced this yet and are still living under the bondage of the Pharisees.

It had to be God. That way later we all could call a spade a spade?

I thought it was real. However, when someone posted a tweet (from an account soon deleted and the tweet is no longer there) asking Craig why he slept with his wife, that was the last of any post from that account on Twitter.

Nobody left but us chickens.... Who knows? Martindale is incognito. In Akron last anyone knew.

Well if you judge by the fruit, then there really should not have been any of these WOW/WayD horror stories you hear about. Unfortunately they are more the norm than a "great" year is. So did God tell the leaders wrong? Or rather is it that God was not working in the leaders at all, and they were faking it through 5 senses activities?

IMO that is by design. With the amount of micromanagement and control they are exhibiting it is clear that they want the most compliant of sheep. They definitely don't want anyone involved that is a free thinker and expressive. They want obedience, compliance. No questions. No "suggestions". No individual research to deal with. Followers that nod the head, do what they are told including cutting off communication with those outside of favor, string chairs at meetings happily, and send in their ABS check. They persecute and run off anyone with a voice. They want Stepford wives as followers. Other types they will give that colonoscopy to. Also, this is masked in sugar-coated terms. In today's TWI, when someone talks about "unity" or "the one body" or "we function as a household" within TWI, this is what they are talking about. They are brain-washed jargon terms, not genuine Biblical terms of how they function. True unity has its basis in love, not fear or paranoia or the lust for control or micromanagement.

Can a zebra change its stripes? If you wanted to do what you are discussing you'd have to write TWI, and be subject to a scrutinization period by a local leader, likely while being on "probation". There would be rules regarding contact and interaction with TWI members. IF they approved, then you could attend a STS at TWI, but likely with reports traveling back and forth between local and TWI on your "status". And people would be monitoring you, looking for your conversations, etc. No, Rosalie is as bad or worse on ANY of that stuff. The problem with trying to have friendships there, speaking of things we agree on, friendly discussions or debates on issues of biblical concern is that they will not be honest with you. There will ABSOLUTELY be another side conversation with a leader regarding ANY conversation, and it will be surrounding how possessed or not you are after being "out of the ministry" for whatever time period. And people won't be real with you - they will be in that mode.