chockfull

"Moving the Word" to me was a cool kind of hippy Christian concept of helping God, doing Bible studies and inviting other people. Of course, as they say, the devil is in the details. When it turns into a managed sales quota, mandatory witnessing times, door to door sales, and "vision and direction" layers of control and reporting, then the meaning is something else altogether.

I haven't personally been offended by this.... I actually thought tv preacher and false doctrine went hand in hand for the most part. Like Benny Hinn talking people into being smacked in the head. But I don't know if I go around calling people out for being false teachers either. I just choose to steer clear of them. Why do you ask?

For so many of us it was really about Christianity. Which I suppose is why God had to really reach into the lion's mouth to help any of us. I was so deluded. Damn wolves in sheep's clothing.

Everything in TWI was geared towards one man. Then another man. Now a woman. And they have tolerated progressively less of a voice from their followers. And more and more micromanagement. They miss the point of Christianity. God doesn't want little robot slave laborers parroting his every word. He wants children who love him and each other.

I liked Daniel Wallace's Epilogue in that article. I'll repost it here: What's interesting is that after delving into all that in (more) original texts, Wallace admits that the beliefs about scripture are faith-based. People seldom re-examine the underlying tenets of their beliefs.

Luke could be mistaken. Or some other reason. When I'm recounting stories, sometimes who was in office at the time I get wrong. Or somebody translating it somewhere could have added a section or details in mistakenly due to their beliefs about it. Or a myriad of other options. I guess it's a mental exercise to chase down and frame what possible error options there would be. Not a mental exercise I'm interested in. I, like most mainstream Christians, don't have my knickers in a wad about forcing harmonies of the gospel accounts. I view them as cool stories from unique spiritual perspectives. After re-examining Luke's words in the "perfect understanding" verse, I think you could make a legitimate case for saying that writing the books of Luke and Acts was Luke's idea - God didn't tell him to write those books. But God did energize him when recording events in his journals and in consolidating those events into the two books. Maybe we are killing off TWI's narrow-minded sacred cows here of "every word and the order of words in The Word™ is perfect". Good. It needs to happen.

Luke 1:3 - I wanted to take on a couple projects of writing about my time with Jesus and the apostles, because I keep a detailed medical journal and I believe that God energized within my soul a unique spiritual perspective. So here is my account, beloved of God. This comes down to whether you believe Luke was writing Acts (and later the gospel of Luke) as an automaton (you know, the "automatic writing" of the spiritualists), or as a human that had a blend of an idea on his own and God inspiring him throughout the journal writing and subsequent consolidation. In my experience with God, I don't think He controls people to do automatic writing.

I know I have to be wrong about this because I look at this too simply. God inspired Luke to write a historical account, and to communicate along with the facts a unique spiritual perspective. Luke mixed up a detail in his memory writing about it. A human error in the midst of an inspired storytelling account. In spite of VP saying "your whole Bible would fall to pieces", somehow it doesn't. In spite of the human error. Or maybe it falls apart to the scribes, who could never get past their paralysis by analysis anyway to live the stuff.

Well, IMO it answers the issue simply because there seems to be more leeway to give to an instructional/wisdom section of scripture over a narrative like the gospels. Are you "telling a story accurately" or "inspiring someone accurately"? Human tendencies are to get all worked up over the former, and not really care about the latter. For the Proverbs issue, there is a legitimate case for "literal vs. figurative" interpretation, and I believe Bullinger records that as the figure atanaclasis, or "a breaking up against the other" referring to one phrase breaking up against the other phrase. I think of that similar to a "strong semicolon". In that case the meaning would be an accurate expression of the human dilemma presented by facing a fool. The author you cited IMO accurately presents the dilemma in saying "Finally, the critic engages in black and white either/or thinking when a both/and approach seems to be called for". Then he states it can get complicated. Yes. The rigidity of thinking is an issue here. When do we put something through "the scientific method grinder" and when do we enjoy something for its inspirational benefit only? Complicated. What blend of the two? I mean I still get benefit out of examining the minutae - word studies, and other studies like the figure of speech category to help me be more inspired. But I'm a lot less hyper about it these days. And I don't feel that a textual error or contradiction represents a challenge to my beliefs like I used to. I can accept that even if "God breathed it" meaning inspired Luke to write historical journals, the mere act of taking pure inspiration and putting it in the world will introduce imperfections. Luke's memory, certain details of events, and human limitations to me indicates that to grind out a scientific-method human-based process on 4 different accounts of stories all to produce a "foolish consistency" is missing the whole point - enjoy the story and narrative. Historical accounts of all types have the limitation of being presented by one author's viewpoint. (I don't agree that 'God-breathed' removes the author's viewpoint - otherwise you wouldn't see an author's style come through) Yet for many historical periods, there are limited accounts available, and everything has that limitation. Critical textualism, canon of scriptures. These are man-made disciplines. Or did God inspire the early Catholic popes to include or exclude texts? And all of the copyeditors of hand copied text? You can get pretty far down a man-made rabbit hole here IMO. I look at the "fruit" or long-lasting impact of a "Peter's Denials" type of teaching for example. VPW focused so much on whether Peter denied the Lord 6x as opposed to 3x that all you really are left with is VPW's flim-flam artistry and your admiration of it and VP, as opposed to where the attention should go - not on the magician doing the act with the scriptures, but on the true lesson of staying faithful and true to our Lord Jesus Christ. The flim-flam artistry is a cheap substitute.

For some reason I am reminded of a couple who had been living together for a year or so got into TWI and registered for a class requiring a hotel stay. The leader involved (ordained, WC, LC etc.) wouldn't let them stay in the same room together as they were not married and he was "taking a stand" against sexual impropriety. The couple naturally concluded that how these people act is different than what they say, and was never to be seen again. Moral of the story? The higher you go in TWI, the more likely you are to run into a leader with the IQ of a small soap dish, as those qualities are promoted, and this causes more attrition to TWI which counteracts any of their good acts. And the group shrinks.

Even if that verse does refer to "God Breathed" referring to scripture, that still does not mean that is an instruction to mankind to employ what Ralph Waldo Emerson writes as "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" and leap to the conclusion that therefore according to man's logic it can never have one iota of contradiction. Look at Proverbs even - "Answer a fool according to his folly" and "Answer not a fool according to his folly" To me "God breathed" just means "inspirational". Not an instruction to take apart the human lung system to dissect what breathing really means and then construct a Tower of Babel religion based on that all with human-based logical fallacies resembling Dana Carvey's comedy routine "Squatting Monkeys Tell No Lies". It's all just how shall I say "a bit much" ?

IMO that was part of VPW's flim-flam act. 4 Crucified, the day JC died. All egotistical attempts to unify a harmony of the gospels that most consider forced. And out of that a cult of personality. Teachings laced with his specialty (homiletics) all to sell some minutae of an interpretation. Then from there to gain control. "If you can't trust them on how many died with Jesus, how can you trust them on more pertinent spiritual matters?". And that egotistical appeal to the intellect snared many. In reality, that's a scribe (Greek word grammeteis or something - synonym "grammatician"). One who strains at a gnat and swallows a camel. The reality of the argument IMO is opposite - if you can't trust them (TWI) on the things that do not matter, like not straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, then how can you entrust them with your life spiritually?

Well that was during the time Janet Myracle and Sharon were living in Rosillie's basement, so the vast majority of the homo girls were kind of protected, even though they were definitely around. They're still there today most of them. He was way over the edge on a lot of Corps teachings though. And on STS. And definitely on his two motor coaches. I think I see what you're thinking with this though. All those rants on specific male homo activity and practices do make you wonder. I think his wife had him questioning his own gender identity for sure. He was an Okie dooface redneck Baptist jock. Thankfully listening to him didn't get me addicted to "Family Guy" cartoons for life. :)

IMO all that stuff was him lashing out because his wife had discovered his indiscretions and so increased her emotional involvement with RFR and whatever all else. Plus Wierwille's view of women was somewhat misogynistic and thus that was the culture. I'm not putting together where you are going with it though. Sorry.

There has to be some element of being "the cheese" present or like in many offshoot cases the founders having too much time on their resume on TWI payroll for anyone else to hire them. So they have nothing else they can do. It's like LCM's demise. Despite all the bravado and bragging about "being able to manage a Fortune 500 company" from ministry experience, where he ended up working is in a part-time seasonal job slinging boxes at UPS. And after that some low profile menial job like the rest of the masses. These guys ego can't take that. And girls too. And people are creatures of habit. Splinter leaders take advantage of this, highlight the sins of TWI, yet then take the people and put themselves in charge as the big cheese and do virtually the exact same things as they did in TWI. Yet now, somehow, because they are in charge, it is now "more loving" or "real" or "a genuine household". And the money flows in to them, instead of TWI. I see a handful of these types of groups around and the only distinguishing characteristic besides a continuation of Stepford wives behavior is what year they left TWI in, which tends to be the foundation around where they felt TWI stopped being "called of God" and turning bad somehow. As opposed to being wrong from the start, and admitting the possibility of being duped, and needing to take accountability for it and move in a direction walking away from the cult doctrine. One of the BS detectors I use is to confront some of those guys with scripture. Or challenge them and see how they react. I have yet to see someone be humble and admit their faults and change. Many times I do this just to see what level of democracy is present, or how opposing ideas are tolerated. Basically every time I've seen it boil down to "well God called me to be in charge here, thus that is the reason and backup for my opinion being right". And it always leads to if you don't like it leave. The reality is there is no real foundation spiritually except for that built on Jesus Christ the cornerstone of the building. But you have all these people building little outhouses all over the place none of which even have the remotest resemblance to being built upon Jesus Christ as the foundation. They are built on a new cult of personality and tradition that is comfortable. That's why splinter groups really don't have an influx of new members like even a local community church will. TWI was and is a ministry founded on plagiarism and adultery as the two predominant practices. And a political climate complete with paranoia and slaughter of character that would almost rival a Hitler/Stalin regime. And some other ones, like a superiority complex born of what probably was mostly manufactured speaking in tongues. Always the elitist attitude. Never collaborative with mainstream Christianity. So always looking down on and denigrating brothers and sisters in Christ. I would rather sit in my house, community, work with true friends and never lead anything again than continue to propagate and support that kind of leavened Pharisee doctrine that damages so many people's lives. Or to lie to myself and say if it's me in charge it will all be better. But then again I have just a touch of self-respect left.

That's one of those adjectives that you can add on to redefine the term where they don't appear as quite an extreme of a dumb-@$$.

Kind of like they go hand in hand together, huh. Oh, and things have not changed by any means. I hear tell the current BOD has "over a hundred years of spiritual wisdom collectively" as stated by themselves.

So the one overarching truth about dating in TWI is that it really clarifies the caste system in TWI.

The "examination" of your giving history was why I know many people reverted to the cash method of giving with no paper trail. But that's a catch-22 because then if you gave a lot you couldn't write it off on your taxes. Part of the Biblical topic of the hope to me is knowing that God is just and that someday these Pharisees will have their deeds examined and be found wanting in the balance. "Examining" people's giving history contradicts so many Biblical principles it's not funny. Obviously these Pharisees don't read or understand Jesus parables. The continued functioning and existence of Pharisees. Without it they would have to go find a real job where people wouldn't put up with their BS.

Conflict does tend to drive people away from interaction. People have different ways they process logic, and different ways of handling conflict. I do know that just due to the nature of bulletin boards or forums like this one, that multiple people answering one person (like is happening here) can tend to make people feel ganged up on. It's an amplification effect, and it is not real. I think virtually everyone posting on this forum, and the many lurkers who read here and are afraid to interact, are all in the same boat of endeavoring to "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good" regarding our exposure and experience in TWI. That can prove very challenging because as we've seen many things that look good on the surface don't always turn to be good in the long run. And because people hide information. We can't avoid conflict, but hopefully we can be mature enough to work through it and move beyond it.

Nice Bible quote to deal with paranoia. Is there one that deals with self-induced paranoia involved with trolling a message board and getting most of the people on it arguing with you by contradicting everything they say and quoting VPW all the time as a standard for truth?

Awesome!!!! Now we've got some really good smack talk going on in this thread again. And all over (drumroll................) Whether outer space is solid, liquid or gas. Boy I sure hope I get that one right. I'm sure my eternal salvation hangs in the balance.

Those misguided morons stuck their noses into virtually everywhere they didn't belong. And it never made it better. LOL at the irony of some misguided BC or TC coming down on people for a singular dating relationship while VP is off frolicking with young ladies on his motor coach while his wife waited at home.

Well we learned in the Advanced Class that the devil was out to control the language people used. The examples presented were like the Communists and the Communist press would control what was allowed to be said. If you control language, then you control people. It's kind of funny how TWI leaders taught so much about themselves and how they functioned, but put it in terms of the devil. Hiding in Satan's shadow!

Can my definition of "foretold" include a bookie?