chockfull

Hi everybody! Just thought I'd start a thread for Christmas greetings even though they are sprinkled in everywhere else! And I'd thought I'd start a list of things I'm thankful for now that I'm not in TWI!!!!! 1. Only meetings with family - no mandatory fellowship schedules with redundant teachings mimicking the STS through the holidays!!! 2. No 24 hours of prayer for BOD or praying in the new year sitting in someone's parlor bored to tears. 3. No Sunday Teaching Service!!!! A little less sleep, but I'll make up for it elsewhere. 3. More money for gifts for people I really care about and funds for helping causes that really matter now that I'm not subsidizing sycophants on a farm. 4. No artificial friends!!! And if I do pick up one or two I'm not obligated to spend time with them because they are labeled "in the household". 5. I'm not a nomad!!!! 6. No redundant classes!!!! 7. No turning in schedules for someone to "evaluate" how I spend my free time. 8. I can own a house!!!! Yes I realize that I don't really own it the bank does but I pay a mortgage. Somehow that's still OK. It doesn't feel any different than renting, except now I deduct the interest payments on my mortgage from my taxes rather than my landlord doing this. 9. Adultery and plagiarism can now just be wrong as opposed to being wrong only for non-leadership people in the TWI caste system. 10. If some crackpot shows up with a story of snow on a gas pump or a set of tablets that an angel named "moron" in Italian dictated to them, they can just be a crackpot as opposed to "The Man of God for Our Day and Time".

Merry Christmas my brothers and sisters!!!!!

Stepping back a minute, sanctification is generally defined as "the process of being made or becoming holy". Part of that definition includes being made whole and being set aside for a purpose. Wrapped into this idea is the concept that since God is so pure, humans to interact with Him need to purify themselves through some process, as humans by nature are unholy. Sanctification has to contain an element that is established by the new birth. With sins being wiped away through the acceptance of Jesus as Savior, humans are made whole and are set apart to be God's children. They are sanctified at the new birth. Yet just as all of the "old man / new man" imagery shows in Romans, because one is "made whole" or "purified and made holy" at one point of time does not mean this will supersede all life choices made by freedom of will following. Salvation however is used as a license to sin by many, and the sanctification aspect of that involved multiplies sin upon sin. People begin to act like they are a "protected class" because of some special sanctification they perceive for themselves that does not apply for others. I saw this time and time again in TWI with leadership positions and egos. Because this "reverend" was set aside for a different and higher purpose, normal Christian rules didn't apply to them (like the rules highlighted in the "adultery" paper). I've heard plenty of boring step-by-step twi teachings on "living sanctified", yet somehow the meaning they slanted towards of spending hours in prayer meetings for the BOD and prayer lists still rang hollow. I guess the way I approach the topic now besides being thankful for being made whole and set aside from wrath by my Savior, is I look at it being pure hearted. More simple, more real, more pure. With God, my family and friends. One example I think I read about that makes me think about this word is the new Pope Francis. That's a guy to me that reminds me of sanctified. He's a simple man, denouncing outward show. I mean if I am rescued and made whole I should be a lot more pure hearted and less impacted by the garbage around me. You know parables, many times I read them over and over, and depending on life's experiences and maybe God's inspiration, different things stand out to me at different times. This time with the rich young ruler what stood out to me is the overall impression I got. This was a good boy, a young boy who HAD obeyed, done things right. Jesus was giving him some life advice - he was going to have some choices ahead of him in life as he really hadn't experienced much of life or life's trials and tribulations yet. Because the kids dad was a rich ruler Jesus was pointing out his upcoming fork in the road, his defining choice in life that was still ahead - to continue in the footsteps of wealth living easily at the expense of his poor neighbors, like would have naturally progressed with his life with a rich ruler dad, or to concern his life with what really mattered, helping others. Be a rich jerk, or be a whole servant. He might have had to state the choice that dramatically to the young kid BECAUSE his family were a whole bunch of really rich jerks. Anyway a few thoughts on the topic. Merry Xmas everyone in doctrinal :)

When I started to realize that VP's version of "spiritual maturity" had more in common with the character plot of 2009 reality TV VH1 series with Bret Michaels than it did with anything spiritual, that kind of led me to suspect the term a bit more.

Absolutely!!! Awesome stuff!!!!

And yet if you look a little closer, the ones being robots for whoever is in authority are people in TWI, not the ones outside of it. The ones outside have started to exercise their "challenge authority" muscles. I don't believe that the local Christian denominational churches in New Knoxville are those authorities, nor do I believe they would censor Bibles. Commentaries that are masked with flawed logic like "how the Word interprets itself", I could see a reason not to include those. However, usually what is stocked in libraries anywhere near modern times with the internet like today are usually simply due to interest. No interest in an author, don't see him in a library. and the reason they didn't want involvement was this was a cult, not a Bible college. Now there are no more faux Bible colleges, only a farm and a ranch. Let me see - it seems you are having some difficulty here with comparisons, so I 'll help you out. The reason that a prophet is not without honor except in his own country is that he is speaking truths from God that are unpopular. Not that the prophet is diddling a large sample size of the young twenty-somethings in his church he started and plagiarizing everything he wrote or class he taught. See the difference yet? the fact that the words "wayfers" and "townies" even exist is a testimony to how universally disliked these people are. But no, the people who really have an impact are those that function according to God's design, not the wolves in sheep's clothing or the town hunting the wolves. You really don't see that kind of animosity of a community towards a church like you see with TWI. I mean even churches where the head pastor snorts crank with a gay escort he's sneaking off with while being married doesn't seem to generate that kind of animosity. TWI has a particular talent there. the only cultural stir I noticed was Joel on "The Soup" watching some of the dancing and talking in a voice like God saying "never do that again...." Regarding the teachings, when Ambien can't sleep it goes to the STS.... That is 180 degrees opposite of how Jesus taught.

I kind of feel like when they were at least pursuing what they called "Word in culture" people acted a lot more normal. Then you could have friends outside of "the household" and enjoy hobbies as they all had a purpose like "Word in culture". Once they stopped all that the only thing left to enlighten us on is how to read can labels properly. Woohoo! I guess though when your high point of "Word in culture" is a production with a 2nd string bench warmer jock in tights who has the hots for a married seed of the serpent dancer, it doesn't bode well. Got to get that controlled and contained. What's the result? The Singing Ladies of the Burlap Sackcloth. Or was it the Singing Ladies of the leftover auditorium drape dresses? Constant scrutiny on the choir to ensure a proper plastic smile? Nah, no impact in culture unless you're considering an artificial "Stepford Wives" culture a real culture.

Thanks for those links too! you have an eye for thorough coverage and those links, while not covering ALL of the commentary on the verse, provides a pretty broad spectrum. I appreciate it! Sure I realize outlier interpretations such as the previous one are not tremendously solid. However, I'm not in bigot censorship mode like I was in the ministry, so like to read them anyway. I also think that God is not beyond double entendre types of messages for those who want to look, and figures of speech and figurative language are a pretty rich source. And also, I think there is a lot in the Bible about our experiences we haven't dug out yet. Certainly books like Galatians how it was taught to us we can do better. I don't need a doctorate in Biblical studies to know that topics like "who has bewitched you?" from Galatians have a lot better interpretations than Geer's head transforming into a picture of VP, for instance. In fact, as an answer to that question, my money is on the drunken lecherous plagiarist and his threefold children of hell successors as opposed to the wiles of the world, the love of money, or the other labels they would try and put on people while giving them the bum's rush.

Interesting scripture and word breakdown. I hadn't heard that before. Thanks!!!

if wierwille's twi were so incredible, why did all of his children leave the org except don after his death?

I don't know about extrapolating all that from his teachings, but the info I heard directly from Mrs. W was that early on they didn't understand the trinity or accept it because it didn't make sense to them so they held it in abeyance (like avoiding teaching topics on it) until later when he wrote the book on it and started teaching on it more openly.

I want to get back to this topic for a bit, as this is a common criticism and argument seen around here. Taken to its very extreme, this type of logic is the same that people use to justify remaining in TWI or other damaging groups. The logic is only dwelling on that which "edifies", and excluding all else from your consideration. We don't want to talk about the "POP" stuff, or this other stuff like VP's sexual problems or plagiarism problems, because it's not edifying. What this is typically known as in thinking circles is "censorship". People want to censor topics, discussions, etc. and as a framework for doing so use whether something "edifies" or not (or "profitable" as VP's word was). What is not typically seen is that this censorship behavior actually is language and behavior of control. What "edifies" or not is typically defined by someone in power, and used to silence the voice of those not in power. I have yet to see any form of democratic approach to defining what "edifies" or what is "profitable". Also, this viewpoint is about the exact opposite of any Biblical logic. For example, the vast majority of the OT prophets spent a large portion of the messages they presented as negative. Crying out against Israel, calling for repentance, stating God's will in opposition to that going on currently. Jesus followed in those footsteps, turning over business tables in the temple, confronting the Pharisees. Where you see censorship recorded in the Bible, typically it is someone in power trying to shut up a prophet with a message they didn't want to hear (i.e. negative one). A leader in power is never going to allow questioning whether their will, decisions, or actions are "edifying" or "profitable". The logic pretty much instead of leaders being honest and repenting, always gravitates towards "God called me to this position, so you are opposing God to oppose me". People twist this censorship around so that the person doing wrong is the one speaking up with the truth. It is supported by tremendous peer pressure, accusations, defamations, and the like. It becomes, again, language for slavery and to promote slavery. So how does the POP paper "edify" me? It allows me to see the fruit of an organization. The fruit of a corporate culture in TWI. Thus this fulfills Jesus teaching of knowing people by their fruit. Seeing the rampant ego, and the extremity of the logic in that paper certainly gives enough background to see the leaven of the Pharisees at work. And after seeing it, as Jesus suggested, people can "beware" of it. Meaning don't trust those people. So, anyway, there are a few scriptural and biblical logic points to help counteract all the echoing going on in your head due to the deafening sound of crickets and the loud echoing of the questions.

VP stole a class from BG Leonard, then ran it verbatim at the beginning. Later he split one class into three classes, all with dependencies, all with the goal of being "fully instructed" as part of the buzz and culture of his group. The "manifestations", being a tangible element of the classes, became a way to divide up the instruction. With one class only, there was not enough indoctrination time for people really get settled in to the culture which holds such ultimate importance on the day of the week Jesus died, and how many criminals he was executed with, because of "the integrity of the Word". VP himself details his history of faking the SIT stuff, including going to Oral Roberts event, being up on stage, etc. (all in the Way Living in Love, quoted here in the thread). So I don't think initially VP considered all the practice sessions, etc. Actually, the first Intermediate class was less developed, without all the practice session stuff. I think in the early years of the class (1965 - 72) they ran classes for a lot of people who were members of local Midwest churches. So they would sit thru the class and go back to their church. From a Christianity perspective, awesome. From an empire building perspective, horrible. So VP enacted strategies to extend out the contact, target youth, promote intangibles as benefits and went after membership, not the message. Absolutely the strategy evolved to build more and more dependency on VP's group. The hippies or "groovy Christians" provided the first group that had enough of its own autonomy and enough disconnection with their parents to be able to sway them to that extent. So those elements came together and a generation was exposed to VP's brainwashing tactics.

I remember this mindset all too well. Atrocity after atrocity and you just keep taking it and taking it. Ignore it, pretend it didn't happen, move on. Just part of the "renewed mind". Verses like "whatsoever things are good, honest, ..., think on those things", like "forget the past press forward toward the mark". You just never think that their spiritual authority is false and that false power is the only hold they have over you. You know some of those verses they taught in Galatians about "who has bewitched you", they are teaching about themselves. They are the ones that bewitch people to accepting their false spiritual authority, which God did not give them - they attained it through political maneuvering and posturing. Then they use that authority to abuse people and make their own life easier. Somewhere down deep I knew it was all BS, all a lie. But it's weird. It's like it's not your life - you can't connect simple logical steps. People are abusing you so distance yourself from them. Stand up to them. Stand up for yourself. Very core survival instincts are stripped away by these people. And lives definitely are damaged through exposure to this. I'm glad God allowed my vision to clear and me to wake up. Some never wake up - they follow their Egyptian taskmasters and live their bondage-filled lives, and die miserable.

What do I have to say about the "Trinity"? Not much. It doesn't appear in the Bible. So it's a church relic, like the "Apostle's Creed". Yet Wierwille's handling of Jesus Christ leaves much to be desired, and how he lived his life doesn't line up with someone whose life is built upon a rock. it just doesn't work that way, with all your life fruit showing as crap but you have some enlightened pure doctrine. in reality, the doctrine is as flawed as the life lived spouting it.

What are you on about here? Is that Pentecostal salad bowl haircut you've got restricting blood flow to your brain? Does your regurgitation of 100 decibel guilt sermons have you typing in all caps again? Surely puffing your chest out and starting fights on the internet is the best way to lead people to eternal life. Or I'll sum it up so that you can understand: U mad bro?

The stripes on a zebra? Now instead of white and black, they are black and white.

Actually nevermind.

Maybe if what every single follower of the Way needs is sleep. When Ambien can't sleep, it listens to the Sunday Teaching Service @ the Way.

Mrs. Wierwille's book. You know looking back on this, some things are standing out to me now that didn't when they happened. First, that book took forever. I got the impression Mrs. W really didn't want to do it, and reluctantly agreed. It was a big priority to RFR to get finished as that would be the basis for whitewashing VP's tarnished image with a better story. If you look at the book, it has more pictures, programs, captions, etc. than a normal book - because that takes up more real estate than the written word. Mrs. W reportedly said to a bystander at VP's funeral that he was a mean man. This is not a wife who wanted to preserve a man's legacy - it's one who probably thought that it was better left alone. One who was coerced into writing a book, then a team of people were assigned to her, and they basically dredged through old historical artifacts and constructed most of it. The one thing that did occur out of all this was a more factual account, quite unlike the horse biscuit version written by the young starstruck girl Elena Whiteside (The Way Living in Love), which even being so slanted offered enough factual material to investigate the snow on the gas pumps story. As such, it provides interesting cross-sections. For instance, once I did a little study on debt - one of the favorite topics of the Way. Except I did it from a historical perspective, from the biographies of the original Trustees including Mrs. W's book. Wow. Suffice it to say that how people live and lived is not like they demand those under them to live. That was so much more enlightening looking at people's fruit than it was listening to RM's soliloquy's on how God created welfare so people wouldn't have to go in debt. There will be no second book, no accounts of the Word moving over the hippies and free love group. Why not? We could even come up with some better titles. Like "Born Again to Be Serviced" possibly. Or instead of Whiteside's title, perhaps "The Way Living Exploiting the Free Love Movement". I guess in the second phase of the ministry VP just expanded his definition of "love" to include young chickadees, motor coaches, alcohol, and rufees. No, that image is not one that is easily whitewashed.

you know, twinky, that's what TWI does to people when they mark and avoid them or the modern term put them on probation. people may have made some mistakes, but that always reminded me of isreal trying to cleanse itself and place all the sins of all the people on that one person then send them out into the wilderness to die. it's an interesting point that really what is going on there is TWI leadership cleansing their own guilt by blaming someone else. when you think about that's what RFR did to her own children, then you start to understand the pattern of what is really behind the modern TWI.

His correspondence course doctorate degree had a major (well you can't really call it a "major" - more of an "emphasis") on homiletics. That's what his thesis was on. So it's really not that surprising that his main skill set was being a huckster.

Love the "scholarly objection to church practices". Luther had no ulterior motive other than the church stop exploiting people for its own end. This has been repeated over and over in TWI circles for those that have eyes to see. Schoenheit's paper for example. Simple word study on "adultery" in the Bible, nothing earth shattering. Look at the extreme amounts of venom involved with how it was received - immediate firing and ex-communication with shunning, firing people who have even read the paper or who passed it on, etc. TWI never apologized and invited back the people they had wronged, they just pretend nothing happened and instead focus "on the youth". The youth didn't experience or don't remember the issues and practices. Problems continue with no acknowledgement from those in charge. Just like the pope opposing Luther. Ex-communication - the tool of the desperate despot - wielded like a club, has been present throughout history. TWI isn't even doing anything new. It doesn't matter if they recognize it or not. They aren't going to change. Jesus talked about consciences seared with a hot iron. And no, TWI lurkers reading this, Jesus wasn't talking about people who question your leadership's edicts and ethics with scripture. But that's fairly obvious to people not continually subjecting themselves to TWI's messaging. To those that are, you are probably not going to see it. You are going to believe the lies and think that people questioning edicts and ethics with scripture are themselves possessed and seared with a hot iron because they chose to leave the "one true household" or whatever. You aren't thinking clearly. You know what I think TWI's greatest sin is recently? It's BORING. I mean truly listen to the STS for example. Even the musicians are boring. Nice. Non-inspiring. And these are people who at one time had some pretty exciting talent. When people heard Jesus teach, they were ASTONISHED. Why? Because he taught as someone having authority, and not like the scribes. The scribes were used to nice little neat organized packages of doctrine, delivered in a sterile environment. Jesus skipped all that and taught compassionately with power. Completely the opposite of the assembly line processed food packaging with which all teachings come out of TWI. They will never have power because of how they live, move and operate. They stifle people's voice. They suppress the individual. They press towards conformity with the upper echelons, all under the guise of "moving as one". You IDIOTS, Nazi Germany "moved as one". That is not a characteristic to be desired. They will receive their just reward. Hope encourages us that justice will be served in the end. I can see it now. We're all dead, gathered together, and all the TWI Pharisees are prancing around with their noses up, reciting soliloquys of how they kept the faith, taught generations the Word, implemented standards, blah, blah, blah. God's response? Meh. Next.

skyrider y u bump old threads? shouldn't u be out handing out gospel tracts? j/k

Yes, I'm sure that's ridiculous. Maybe my terminology didn't communicate my thoughts - helping God, serving God, same concept to me in my young Christian brain getting involved. It was a good feeling Christian family type group - that liked to study and teach the Bible, and share with others. I'm sure that's what the upper level Pharisees wanted to and still want to promote as the public image and feel of the ministry - as that is what attracts the youth demographic. That's why they perform their insidious acts in private and do so much slandering and shunning to shut down communication of anything different. To preserve the rainbows and unicorns of their public image.