chockfull

You mean his major in homiletics for the Pikes Peak Biblical Seminary? Yeah so basically his bi-weekly writing assignments which he needed to mail in focused on that area. Although he didn't "go to school" or "specialize" in the manner you would traditionally think.

Do people really think that prayers from a splinter group "pay for prayer" head honcho is going to carry more weight with God than people in their own family and friends? I would tend to think God would have to tune out the static to listen to the important people.

Great stuff skyrider. And Rocky I like your response on that teaching video - telling it like it is.

well we in the corps had this behavior modeled for us, and we were specifically coached to behave in this fashion. the myriad of vp and lcm mimics I've encountered have been hysterical. one in particular was a nerd trying to act all western tough. I was always like wtf are you trying to be around that guy.

They pass off their mail to others when they don't feel like responding. I've gotten 1-10 word responses on envelopes from vp and lcm that ARE personal. But a lot of written responses would have been Rhoda / Pat Saunders / whatever curmudgeon like R2pp or someone for Fox.

Can't beat that. Sounds like a good time. Have a happy 4th!!!!!

Yep. Happy Independence Day all. I do celebrate also my independence from bondage on days like today.

And to the Corps he taught and gave "literal translations according to usage". In other words, you're writing a commentary and need 4 BS distracting adjectives to convince others you are not.

what this all means is jesus parable that it would be better to drown with a millstone around your neck than offend one of these little ones that believe in him. After going through PFAL more times in a lifetime than anyone should have to, VP basically constructed a theology around little things - "4 crucified, the day JC died, etc". he used that to get people to doubt mainstream theology, such as would be expressed in say a set of commentaries. (Commentaries were NEVER used in TWI as they were "man's opinion". VP would never let ANOTHER man's opinion hold sway). Commentaries in actuality are a consensus of educated people in a field of study. Then VP used that methodology in insert his theology - against mainstream Christianity. This isolated people off from mainstream Christianity further, to the point now where very few ex TWI people are in mainstream Christianity even after exiting TWI for many years. Isolating from mainstream Christianity also in many, many cases isolated people off from their earthly Christian families, friends, fellowships. This is very powerful stuff. You are an example. I mean look now, you have not been involved in TWI for many, many years, yet you still have VP's used car salesman rah rah mentality going on about "rattling the adversary's cage, and their only defense was to shout CULT". The adversary in reality was smiling like a spider as you progressed further and further into his web.

I do see where you are going. I personally justified putting up with the yelling because of logic like this. And they also used logic about schools of the apostles and yelling where they justified yelling at corps recruits because its training. I took it, put up with it, and didn't see it.

Dude I will tell you what makes complete sense about what you are saying. When we were in college, Friday nights would be Rocky Horror Picture Show once a month at the college campus theater. There was the movie, and there was also an interactive dialogue with the movie, and the audience would play an extended part in the show including needing raingear for a portion of the acted out part. I felt a lot like the extended character in the audience interacting with an automated film when we were in TWI.

God did not use VP to draw you closer to our lord and savior. However, the Bible study, the fellowship, and the genuine Christian actions you took and others around you took and the fellowship you had while in TWI were God getting to you despite circumstances and choices. I made a choice to join TWI. I don't know. That's how I look at it.

Absolutely. With all of these antics, they were establishing a parent->child relationship with all of us. That maintained parent->child relationship was what was most vital in TWI, not the classes, not the Bible fellowships, not the surface material. Now I'm sure johniam will come back saying "I didn't have a child/parent relationship with anyone". No john many of us had much nobler motives and intent. However, the parent->child relationship is what TWI leadership wants in EVERY relationship.

If it wasn't boring the first time, it sure was the 20th time with all of the grads parroting VP's stupid jokes (apple butter and split pea soup anyone?) and drilling holes into the back of the heads of the students with their eyes making sure they don't fall asleep then waking them up rubbing their shoulders with a "bless you" so they don't miss any of that vital material. I'm sorry not understanding. Are you leaking PFAL quotes as you travel down the road?

There is a God. There is a devil. And people want to take God and put him in their shirt pocket, and call everyone else around them with a different viewpoint the devil. The worst example of this is Westboro Baptist Church. No he has not. But I enjoy his posts.

Yep. V2P2 is JP and Shari's son. JP is VP Wierwille's youngest son. Sara Guigou is VP Wierwille's youngest daughter, a little older than JP. Both families left TWI and have been more or less involved in CFF Christian Family Fellowship, started by John Shroyer, joined by Wayne Clapp. Kevin is the prez now of CFF. One of Shroyer's daughters tried to take over but I think failed. SOWERS is kind of a tangential thing that V2P2 wanted to do to preserve the original "heart" of WOW, and Corps principles. Some folks in CFF owned a farm and let him.

I started a thread for him. It's an interesting question. Maybe people want to discuss.

My first gut level on this was "wow - I don't know". I mean for sure it was a movement of hippies attracted to the love in the Bible and centered around the Bible. The stories I've read are real genuine. And for sure if someone reaches out to God He is there for them and responds. Accounts I've read that touch on TWI are the Heefner/Doop stories, which by all accounts sound like something genuine that VP rode in on and usurped putting his less spiritual Corps grads in charge and replacing them. So no, that part was a movement by VP, not God. So to me maybe this isn't a black and white answer to the question.

Started us on a rant? It's cool don't worry about it.

I would draw a line between dorky and delusional. Mainly because I've always been a little dorky ;) But yes, things are over the top even for dorky little me. I think the main one that was always my #1 pet peeve was singing "SIT" for "Jingle Bells". With people throughout time that focused on VP's quirks, speech impediments, and phrasing to try and duplicate it I don't think they are dorky, they are more like the scribes in the Bible who "do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God". Like V2P2 in the Sowers ordination. It's more sad over the waste of his life and those who listen to him, because repeating "we're turning the world upside down it's all kitty wompus" is not a Harry Potter spell that will magically chase evil away from you and double the size of your Podunk church. Dork it up hoss. Enjoy yourself. Now one thing I always wondered about the Beatles - if you play their White album backwards, do they jaywalk?

And the Pope is Catholic, and bears do their business in the woods. Yes, someone cared about them and didn't want them falling hook line and sinker for teachings of a cult. I would phrase this as it's hard to fall hook line and sinker without cutting off opposing information from friends, family, and ministers. I hope that's a typo with the sodomization comment, otherwise you have issues. I ran tons of classes for years and never heard of the word "plant". I had plenty of people take classes to check it out, or with a church background negative perspective, and others of varying mental backgrounds. However I looked for the good in people and how to help them rather than your perspective. When you are hyper-focused on the negative in people, life supplies details. I'm still not sure of what you are accusing them of - copying PFAL tapes in their truck? I would say if they were doing that they were just modeling the behavior of the teacher. They were doing what he did, not what he said. What about the good legitimate Christians' conscience regarding citing your source of material when writing a book? Why is J.E. Stiles book on the Holy Spirit published 3 years before RHST about 70% identical to RHST? Nice. Even your strawman arguments sound like VP logic. Most of the new students in most classes just disappeared. I mean speaking from keeping records and statistics. Wow. People who took a class together later show up at Burger King with other dates or friends. This is amazing. True spiritual sleuth work going on here. Well, your sentiments aren't totally lost. I mean the Gideons have similar sentiments which cause them to place Bibles in hotel night stands. As far as random copied PFAL bootlegs out there really changing people's lives for the better, don't know about that one. Would postulate that there are few enough bootlegs, that most of them are owned by ex TWI people so they don't really listen to them often, and that splinter groups wanting to run them would more likely teach their own regurgitated version so as to maintain copyrights.

Hey saves money on having to have a pianist on staff, right? I mean I never saw her play for all the years she was in twi. And right now with the all of 8 tables at the extravaganza saving money has to be paramount. They probably can't afford to have anyone else on staff anyway, even at minimum wage.

Maybe he is out looking for a moral compass. :biglaugh: Karl your attention to detail in your narrative is like your book both awesome and downright scary. Thanks for writing.

"together we can turn the world upside down.... that is right-side up because it's all kitty wompus" Glad to see young V2P2 is focusing on the important things like purloining gramps old unfunny stupid phrases from PFAL. Appropriately, the 2014 "Extravaganza" had what, 8 total tables at it? I would think that to turn the world upside down you might need more than 8 tables, and if what you've got is 8 tables then maybe you aren't doing much turning the world upside down.

But sky, you don't understand. That just means there's over 400 years of collective spiritual wisdom at the leadership level of TWI :rolleyes: :rolleyes: