chockfull

sometimes i get curious about what's going on lately. not that often honestly. and not curious enough to buy a Way magazine ;) because that would involve giving them money.

i agree. amazingly enough the entire time i was in twi other than the public scandals i personally never ran into this. i heard some rumors but by the time you heard the rumor it usually was damage control after they got kicked out or something. so i discounted it. i never thought it was woven into the upper layers of leadership. thought never even crossed my mind. because it was hidden, even the scandals i didn't react with a normal indignancy. mentally i was like the guy made a mistake. i was pretty naieve and blind.

is bob moneyhands still there writing "redrum" on the windows as he wanders the halls all by himself and schedules security for the one visitor this month? yeah they own it. i think they paid cash for the land and some old buildings on the property, then ed h*bbs company built all the log home structures. vp tried to get him to donate all the work and ed told him he learned from his class a workman is worthy of his hire and he made twi pay for all of it. even in all the flimflam there were/are people in twi with vestiges of common sense.

yep yep. what up WordWolf? God allows us to be tempted and tested. this proves our character to ourselves and God. unfortunately the label didn't matter to me. i read it and took the class anyway. both true but i don't think there is one church that represents "God's ministry". I think that premise is faulty. i think that there were some out to make a buck off that like ted patrick. but most who use the cult label with twi i've found to either have had personal negative experience or someone close to them had negative experience. i think twi earns every bit of their cult label by their behavior. sheesh look at what they've done to their own way corps. put all these people through FlimFlamU graduate them, then drop them. jesus taught he that troubles his own house shall inherit the wind. i guess that was prophetic, no? "but twi has changed it's better now". yeah i can see how they have reformed by how chandl*r gr*ene has a pharmacy degree that he's not using that he couldn't go in debt to get but now he's the way corps director. same story different generation. and they have 2 people left.

yes i agree that twi's dark side didn't stop God from blessing people in it. i have a wife and family from my time in twi - we never would have met otherwise. johniam this is actually one of the toughest things to come to grips with. its like job: from victim to victor part 4. the goodness of God, the badness of the devil, and the corruption of a megalomaniac (or 3). the way i look at it now God led me in, then led me out. to me that's a healthier viewpoint than i screwed up my youth, missed all the signs, and now i'm all alone on a dung heap. although i'm sure that's how twi would want me to feel. but that's what makes them like westboro baptist. God can help anyone anywhere, innies, outies, people going to home fellowships splintered off from the splinter of a splinter of a megalomaniac. actually that's part of the twi mentality trap. that you have to be in a certain place or following the orders of a certain person for God to bless you or even listen to your prayers.

this type of speech really hasn't varied since whatever pope it was threatened martin luther. and in twi all of them were and are like this at the top vpw lcm rfr. the longer the leader is there, they garner more power, become paranoid, and start reassigning assistants to siberia. the remaining asistants are under a regime like the communist rule. yes this highlights a great point about how to pinpoint and avoid spiritual abuse. Places that don't allow free conversation and criticism - that indicates a red flag to avoid. sorry can't relate to the rock star analogy - all that does is put that dumb song in my head by that dumb band that i don't like.

Irony of ironies, the loan taken out to buy the Emporia KS campus is documented in Uncle Harry's book I believe. Or maybe Mrs VPW's BATS book. Actually that would make an awesome study for a twig presentation - "A Study of Debt" from the founding two Sec/Treasurers of TWI as seen through Way biographical books. I don't believe a loan was obtained to buy the Gunnison CO property. Oh, and then there's a discussion to be had about how much was lost in the sale of each of these properties - I want to hear that discussion from the Sec/Treas who would turn the lights in the bathroom off on you all the time.

So my question is if I successfully implement all of the "keys", do I unlock a badge accomplishment? Does something ding, and I get to slay a dragon and rescue a fair maiden?

Hmmm.... The last one I went to had free Bibles on the back table if you forgot yours, had scripture references on the screen during the sermon, had an App you could download to follow along that had all the scripture references of the sermon in the Notes section of the App as well as a link to an online Bible. Or you could just listen and follow along on the screen if you wanted to. The one I went to before that to listen to a band was kind of scripture reading oriented. In that they would publish and cover a certain section of scripture during a certain time period. I Kings in September or something. And they didn't really preach, they like read a section of scripture and that was it. The world is a much bigger place than cultic small groups.

Alternative definition: Working the Word: "The Word" in its natural state does not suffice as a tool for manipulating the weak and providing the megalomaniac with power. Thus they will "work" it.

Dude, chill out. A lot of these old dogs around here's bark is much worse than their bite. ;) Have a cup of java on the cafe and keep breathing.... Nice article charlene :)

Rumor control I heard was that he didn't live with the doc but TWI owned a house outright for LCM to live in rent free. He has to report to the doc though who fills in the directors.

You are entitled to call people on the fact vs. opinion. And I agree with Allan that I'm not challenging your views on this either. Or implying that views on one side of this or another indicate anything else. I do think you read a little into my comment on spiritual elitist. I was commenting on the flavor of one post, not an overall assessment of someone's life. I do think one horrible habit we picked up in TWI was an extreme intolerance for opposing views. So I want to act more normally in this setting, not like a cult member. After a little more reflection I also wanted to add that because TWI taught a spiritual elitist attitude on one side of the manifestations, I acknowledge that for many people developing a strong attitude on the other side of the argument helps them balance things out for them. I agree.

Yes we were taught to be gong players for sure in the ministry. And VP's lack of integrity is the foundation of TWI.

I guess I specifically thought your post was confrontationally challenging Allen and throwing a gauntlet down to have him enter a million dollar challenge to prove the genuine nature of what he feels is a genuine act. Actually that's about exactly how it came off. And rather than rehash an old prolonged heated argument again I just thought that maybe you dialing it back a couple notches and respecting that others who post here have a different opinion than yourself on this matter would be warranted. That's all. Sorry if you didn't understand what I meant by "Buzz Killington". It seems to me that one side of this argument isn't the only place "spiritual elitism" as an attitude is encountered. I didn't mean to get in the middle of you guys argument.

I absolutely agree with you that the classes and ministry in general instilled a spiritual elitist attitude that was definitely surrounding this topic of gifts of the spirit or manifestations. Oh and no worries on taking things personal. I'm just standing up for beliefs too.

not directed at you. I respect that others have different opinions than myself on this matter. Actually after thread review SPECIFICALLY not directed at you. You clearly state views as your opinion in post #22. I just request equal reciprocal respect.

Absolutely. the numbered characteristics in that article including this one pretty much catalog how cult leaders act.

and again, not to rehash but gloassalallia is not proven to be 100% same as speaking in tongues. I disagree that the "yes it is" is provable. And again you are getting spun up into a page and a half long post here. my position is God designed SIT for people's PRIVATE prayer lives, not for public exploitation and the collection of a million dollars. I really don't want to rehash all the errors taught in way classes, or be misinterpreted again that I support all that. I will leave it at that.

Without diving headlong into a previous argument here, do you think you could be a little less Buzz Killington? I'm starting to pick up around here an attitude like people have proven that modern tongues is false and everyone faked it in TWI. No you haven't. Or did we need to revisit all that logic again? God never states anywhere that He will support man's test theories or million dollar "prove it" logic. And unfortunately the way God works He wouldn't support that kind of proof any more than He would have been able to if the devil convinced Jesus to throw himself from the top of a ledge so that angels could bear him up. wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact. People still do speak in tongues around here, and pray and all that. if you want to share your experience that's fine but you don't speak for me here.

Knowing sh1t Howard Allen used to say about insurance like "God is my insurance" and stuff like that I would bet they probably didn't want to pay comprehensive collision on that big rig.

Yes many of those Genesis interpretations were mere speculation and invention - a new mysterious story that sounds cool. Regarding the Genesis writers, I thought basic astronomy was known during that time, much more than worlds of the flat in Columbus days. The zodiac signs and "witness of the stars" or that type of information was I thought catalogued at Alexandria. That doesn't seem to coincide with the claim made in that article though. He just states unequivocably that it was believed the earth was flat in that time without introducing one shred of supporting evidence. Still it's an interesting article. I did hear it in TWI. It was part of 2nd foundational class.

Right on everybody. It really is telling to me that when we all start thinking of that term in the Bible life - zoe - life in all of it's manifestations, why is it that more of that has started to open up to us once we stopped listening to the Pharisees?

thx sky. I didn't look it all up in her book before posting. So BA from Mission House in 38. MT Princeton Theological Seminary in 40 DTh Pikes Peak in 48. The timelines add up. He got his bacehlors and masters, then first pastorate in 1941, then for the doctorate he was already working full time so did a correspondence course. The July 1948 road trip was partially for attendance requirements, and to get the degree from Pikes Peak Bible Seminary. That actual school was not really a school but a single home residence in Manitou Springs Colorado with about 8 bedrooms that many of the faculty lived in. The doctoral program would consist of writing papers and sending them in for grading. Then a final presentation or sermon in person. So basically VP had masters creds like most of his contemporary pastors. the doctoral degree is unrecognized, unaccredited because it did not involve the same level of rigor as programs at an established university. at best the doctoral program gave VP the impetus to develop his homiletics as that was the focus of his study. how to move large groups of people through speech. And it also looks like the doctoral thesis was probably an adaptation or expansion of the masters thesis.

The weird thing about it to me is that he received both his Bachelor's degree from Lakeland college and his Masters degree from Princeton Theological Seminary both in 1941. I thought masters degrees took 2 years of study. VP is 24 years old then, and is ordained to the E&R church and starts his first pastorate. Something is fishy there.