chockfull

I think you are painting with too broad a brush here - labeling and judging a bit. Each one of us has our Christian story and life story intertwined with TWI in various fashions and capacities. Each one has to deal with a very unique story and background - all intertwining with a cult. I have to go through it all in my life and sift through what is valuable and what is not, in the midst of all of my life story - what do I take out of programs, positions, classes, etc? And it is a cult, make no mistake. Switching churches doesn't cause trauma like this. I personally don't share a ton of personal details as I prefer to remain anonymous publicly, but my story is real too. I fade in and out of posting on GSC too depending on life's needs and where I'm at trying to make sense of my story. On any kind of internet forum discussion there is a "piling on" effect, where if 2 or 3 people answer your post in a row it feels like they are ganging up. A good part of that is the actual medium we are using to communicate. Sure people are defensive too. Every one of us has been burned. I don't think there is enough connection here at GSC to say it's a cult. There is no leader, or cult personality. There are people with varying numbers of years of our lives spent in TWI yes that is true. Sometimes I think those of us that spent more of our lives in need to claim that verse in Joel about the years the worms have eaten being restored even more. And those that were ministers or leaders in TWI even more so. There is a real struggle with what all that effort and diligence and discipline for so many years accomplished in the long run in the Christian story in our lives and the body. What should I be proud of? What should I not? I guess lately I'm proud to be God's son, and that's about it. I'm also proud of my family and the support and love we've built over years and that surrounds me now when I'm down. I had a friend recently who teaches natural horseback riding spend some time teaching myself and my daughter about the trust nature of a horse and a man relationship, how when everything works right there is absolute trust the horse has to a very small movement command of the reins. He told me this was like the relationship we should have with Christ - complete trust and response to reins. His courage and love teaching us that day kind of changed me a little, and I guess I'm trying to look to my Lord and rider a little more lately. Anyway, I guess another point is our stories aren't done being written yet either even in our Christian growth, or personal growth as a human being for others who don't identify with Christianity any longer. One of the interesting things your post brings up is discussing things like this - ordination - seems to divide people. You want my 100% raw thoughts on the topic? Ordination was God talking to Paul after He raised him from the dead inspiring him to go on to the next city. There were no VP invitations, BOD letters, ceremonies, salt covenant BS, little corpse seal paperweights, foot-kissing of patriarchs or matriarchs, selling your souls, or obeying edicts you don't agree with. It didn't end up in lofty positions or titles sitting in coveted circles with other Pharisees, but in famine, poverty, shipwreck, and in the end being cast out by his own people and martyred. Paul kind of gave up the BS ordination with the Pharisees for something a little more real. Reality is a lot less appealing. And 99.8% of all the hot air circulating around this topic is exactly that.

Leaving TWI and all of its mental influences and tentacles into everything including interpersonal relation skills is a real minefield. Don't sweat it overall - argue with people, don't whatever you choose take time for perspective get your real self and views out. People here are sensitive, but everyone is. I find myself more sensitive on certain topics than I thought I was. But really the value is just past all that. I'm still sticking with adultery and the internet as reasons TWI isn't big now. And with my other original question "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody hears it do the Sunday Services still suck?"

The only evidence I see is y'all arguing. You're newer and a few people might have nitpicked some of your early posts and you came in strong still are. It happens. But the valuable part of the discussion is on the other side of all this shiz Sarcasm on the internet seldom plays out like it does in my head before I post. I know this discussion is escalated but it would be great if we could chill a bit before continuing

MRAP the genuine side I feel of all this I was taught while in was the ceremony was a public recognition while God energizes a gift by His choice

One of the interesting scriptural studies in the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" is kind of an expose on Pharisees - how they live, work, function. One thing sticking in my mind right now is the argument over "corban" or gifts with jesus. The study highlighted that the Pharisees would set up internal business circles and practices within so that they would only have to do business with other Pharisees - to be isolated from any impureness by having to deal with the general public. This is precisely the feel that the BOD give off and how HQ is as a closed off society.

yeah agreed - or that "I can fix you" mentality in the same attitude. we all struggle with that stuff i believe, myself included. in reality i can't fix you. i can't even fix myself. i'm broken. i can develop a relationship with my savior and heal. and that healing can make me a new life. anyway i guess my point is that i have issues just like all of y'all. and that they are ongoing rather than being all healed and not affecting me anymore. but it's better than yesterday. that's reality. true reality isn't the problem, it's the false vision realities living in people's heads.

Totally. What an exercise in distilling what should be the spiritual down into rote mechanical management BS. Now watch all the lemmings follow suit. What a tool!!!! LOL "international countries" - does he mean as opposed to national countries like a fenced in Texas or something? oxymorons abound

It's a false head - set up to be VP. VP's entire focus for his teaching ministry seemed to be on the minutae of Jesus life, and missed the relationship. 4 Crucified, The Day JC Died, JCPS,JCOP all subtly emphasize that if you can't trust a preacher on the physical details of Jesus life and ministry then how can you trust them on true spiritual matters. That is the hook that got people to devalue other mainstream Christian teachings (or at least the ones not plagiarized by VP). Combine that with an egotistical appeal to be a little more spiritual than your neighbor, and some programs to feed into that, and that separates out Christians from the herd, where they can be made totally reliant on one person and their interpretation of scripture. Cult 101. VP set himself up as the head of the body by proxy. Another problem is the caste system, which feeds on human weakness and enables this type of scenario. An individual sets themselves up as an intercessor between another and Christ, and other compliant people accept that. Jesus came so that we can accept him as lord and therefore not need another intercessor between ourselves and God. We have direct dial, speed dial, voice command dial, etc. Genuine Christianity IMO has two important aspects of attitude here - Access and Accountability Access - all have equal access in prayer to God Accountability - all have individual responsibility for their own life (can't blame choices on an intercessor making a decision for you) Where problems enter in is the distortion of those 2 aspects - another "man" - leader, prophet, etc. between an individual and God in their prayer life, and the accountability or lack of it that a weakened morality and theology erode. Thus people are brought into slavery and dependence on others for what should be their own personal relationship with Christ.

donnie was a space. i loved him. he was blatantly unaware of about 90% of all rules. the last part of his life was really sad. i'll be glad to see him at the return.

Hmmmm. Why isn't TWI as big as it was in the '70's? I'm going to have to go with adultery and the internet as an answer there. Corollary question: "If a tree falls in the forest and noone hears it, do the Sunday Services still suck?"

Ah yes. Let me count the ways normal Christianity is better than cult Christianity: 1) If I want to sleep in on Sunday and watch football, I can watch a service replay later and nobody will be checking up on me whether I attended or made it up. 2) Service - I can sign up, serve once, people are thankful and don't try to manipulate you or dictate your service 3) Small Groups - go, don't go - it's all cool - 1x a week max with nobody pressuring you to take a class 4) $$$ - people aren't legalistic about tracking your giving, overstepping boundaries with leaders "getting involved with budgeting" and money goes to real causes not another layer of dust wax on the auditorium railings or flowers on VP's grave. 5) Music - musicians don't sound like someone's foot is on their neck - real music without the swinging ladies of the maternity clothing - guitars you can hear - not mealymouthed lyrics revised 85x by the STS committee 6) Sermons - lack the patronizing note of TWI teachings - no parent talking down to a child flavor 7) Tolerance - many churches tolerate and encourage people's involvement and participation who have different beliefs than them - even atheists 8) Community - real service to community, not DTD invite to PFAL / WAP classses or accosting people late night in malls. Homeless fed, poor given Xmas gifts, people in trouble helped in local community. Greater missions supported like Exodus Road - sex trade work and freeing captive kids in other countries. 9) Society - Other Christians in society have the same knowledge, relevance, commitment, story, deliverance I do. I can meet them, interact with them, go to a church with them, etc. without all the "weirdness" of explaining or living with VP's sexual predation, plagiarism, and cult doctrine. 10) Neighbors - I can actually have a Christian friendship with neighbors - something TWI has never achieved in all 72 years of fabricated existence. 11) Classes - are not 2-3 weeks 3x a week with "needing to make a commitment to be at every session" to ensure proper bombardment and indoctrination occurs. 12) Debt - nobody cares. Nobody twists scriptures to set edicts. Dave Ramsey material is available/used for help in that category, but people aren't disallowed class registration or leadership responsibilities due to debt. 13) Mortgage/Car Loan - I can have these, talk about them with my Christian friends, help each other get best deals, and not feel like a 2nd class citizen denied advanced teaching and leadership. No more awkward conversations with relatives trying to explain why a car loan is debt but a car lease isn't debt and a mortgage is debt but signing a 2 year apartment lease is not debt. 14) Current - my Christianity / spirituality can remain current and relevant to the time rather than isolated and gravitating towards an Amish society in a cornfield or on the island of Lesbos somewhere... Just a start there. When you leave TWI, you leave a cult run by false prophets. When you leave TWI, you leave the twisting of the Word which they use to manipulate and control the stupid When you leave TWI, you will become a sprouting plant by day. The only greasespot by midnight is the former TWI president who made that statement who was ousted kicked out of HQ bum rushed out of there and moved to Akron and put on a short leash. When you leave TWI, you are leaving a false household of God.

Now there would be something to show Vic if he were still alive - "Hey VP - look - it's your bud-ddies. They're glad they don't have to fly coach too, but they don't have near the amounts of Drambuie and young women around that you did". The logical conclusion is that "daimonion fly coach, but Daimon all have their own jets" :) I will tell you listening to those mamby pamby mealymouthed excuses for men whining about the inconvenience of flying "commercial" makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

My viewpoint is no you can't change the past but you can distance yourself from it as opposed to making choices that will destine you to repeat it, like continuing to drink from broken wine skins.

Child abuse pure and simple. Brainwashed parents. Extreme fear of not reporting back. I never let other adults spank my kids. Thats my job. I kept that shiz out of my areas of influence but I saw it and was powerless to stop it. Still probably my rationalization.

No doubt. An hour of freedom, a breath of freedom is worth casting off the shackles of those false prophets fromTWI. VPW charismatic or not alive or not, built a spiritual inner circle swingers club that ran the show. A dumb young okie jock took a fifth of what was left and carried on the tradition leaving a trail of devastation until being cuckolded by Rosie and kind of divorced by Donna which they hid as well as their love life. My freedom started when I realized the only authority TWI had over me was in my mind. I could mindlessly accept TWIs authority over me or I could reject it as not coming from or set up by God. The spot was the first thing that gave me a bit of hope after leaving. And a band. But it took me like 7 years after leaving before I'd interact with other Christians again or go to a church. I'm continuing to heal. And TWI is something that reminds me of a song Roses by Outkast.

Don't leave out the motor coach driver between the two P3t3r E$mond. I mean since you brought it up.

This is what happens when a cult of personality gets taken over by a person with no personality. Governance by rules and legalism, and a system and leadership which erases personality. Is the observation that the result of that is it turns people into bland legalistic Christians? Makes sense.

Pics or didn't happen 🤓

And let's not discount a good ole fashioned job as motive too. You know like in the OT how things got so bad they put people in a priests office for a morsel of bread. Just like TWI people's paycheck prevents too much introspection about truth as the truth would also mean finding another job

Jon, sounds like you're having a tough time learning to stay out of cults. That's too bad, because the devastation in your life won't show up until later. I guess the lie of "exclusive truth" and a unique calling to protect it is like crack to the weak mind. So to provide you with the charitable words of encouragement from Jesus you seem to so desire, run from that phony who is building and seeking out his next failed ministry like he has his marriages as fast as you can. Your sympathy towards his false humility is clouding your judgement. Find the humblest least impressive church you can, get down on your knees, and ask God for forgiveness for letting your head fill with intellectual acrobatics in scripture that promote a denigrating and false view of fellow Christians and of Jesus himself. Then you will break the cycle of ever learning yet never coming to the truth and the incessant lust for knowledge you try to pass off as being "zealous for the truth". Love in Christ, Chocky

o the fail. I finally actually watched this. that guy lives in the wrong century. he really should be wearing a top hat in a horse drawn wagon with painted sides in the 1800's because he surely is the classic huckster, the snake-oil-salesman prototype. a stand-in for steve martin in a leap of faith. johnny-boy really needs to be true to his real calling and go ownership in a used car dealership with someone. even funnier were the testimonials. no, I'm not enthusiastic about the class so that I can turn out to be a stand-in cast for the walking dead, like all of those giving testimonials. dwbh I am dumb but finally figured out who you are. never had the pleasure sir during my cultish journey as I was a decade plus after yalls.

hey just got around to reading that blog. nice article and resources. on your book i don't know your situation but self publishing through lulu.com is a great way to go getting things out to a small audience and getting up and running quickly.

you mean like me at times being a complete basket case in a regular church? correct. i have like these waves of irrational fear that someone is going to use me and manipulate me. they don't last and they go away but man.

here's for the years

you mentioned victor barnard