chockfull

It was the preparation of the household of the Way that kept anything from happening. Heard that bs too many times. The funny part looking back is the partial truth of the matter. We were so busy running around buying unnecessary crap and reporting back on everything there was no time for anything to happen with us that's for sure. So then when y2k fizzled for conspiracy theorists they could claim a Pyrrhic victory and move on to their next theory all while manipulating us. Reminds me of some reading I've done on another cult that's bigger the JWs. They number around 2 million worldwide. Multiple predictions of end times dates failing and needing to be explained. Rutherford was a leader whose profile it would be interesting to compare to VP - mansions new cars etc.

My experience in mainstream Christianity is that the term "gift ministries" is never used. My experiences parallel Oakspears. People loosely use the terms "pastor" and "evangelist". Nobody uses the term apostle. Teachers are a secular profession and that term usually doesn't cross over into Christianity discussing a "pastor"s talents. Prophets are usually a Muslim cleric sending out suicide bombers - that's the only modern use of that word I've heard. The TWIT practice of speaking the "gift ministry" into being with a word of prophecy over an ordination candidate also seems a bit flim-flammy no? I mean there's what you hear in the prophecy and then there's the reality of how the person really is. For example the foxster running twit now - "prophecy" would seem to indicate a "pastor and prophet". Reality was the "gift" was nothing more than overwhelmed schoolteacher micromanagement. And a soulmate to help decide assignments. As a matter of recollection a lot of those "gifts" had an immediate impact on the body of asking how they could give it back.

Not to be too cynical but I think there is probably plenty of practical precedent in TWI where you could define "gift ministries" as the people upon whom you were expected to bestow gifts on over and beyond your ABS.

So I'm going to chime in here because I think that what "evidence" has shown is a little different than what you are projecting here. If I recall correctly, the "failed to detect known languages" part of your statement is correct. However, to jump to the conclusion from there that "the evidence that exists indicates that Pentecostals are not producing languages" is 100% false. The linguistic examination showed that what was being spoken was "similar to" known languages in that constructs could be seen such as sentences and paragraphs as opposed to just uttering gibberish. And that's where it ends. Not provable either way.

No. You don't say. Just because the correspondence school he got his doctorate degree from was a house close to downtown Manitou Springs Colorado?

So to the extreme on some of these phrases, there was this one chick we knew in the ministry, and she would always be talking "when Doctor did this, when Doctor did that" - that was the only phrase she would ever refer to him by. Not VPW, not Vic, etc. Only doctor. She did have known significant private access to him. Looking back on it, me thinks the doctor dicter.

Nice post Steve and you are 100% spot on with the tolerances stuff. The definitions of words are paramount in doctrinal studies for sure. The perspective on administrations is cool too. I noticed the most wacked out Way logic doctrinally w/r to administrations actually showed up in their teachings on debt. Listening to those acrobatics dealing with the topic migrate over the different administrations they teach is completely illogical. With respect to My feelings are to let it drift with some leeway as you see on courtroom TV. Some of the side journeys really contribute a lot like Steve's tolerances stuff. If we get too persnickety defining what's on topic it restricts the conversation. You know, kind of like every conversation you ever have with Way brained people.

I am certainly not the lemon. No worries. My response kind of cut into another argument I guess. I have no accusations of myopia for you. Just expressing my beliefs.

Alternatively, I kind of just pray a bit in different formats and varieties, and let the chips fall where they may. I figure the man upstairs can understand a tongue and can also understand me articulating with intent in prayer. From my perspective, it's personal prayer life stuff. Some of it engages the brain, other may calm the brain and be more meditative in quality. I'm not doing it on tape, audio, video, tv broadcast, or stadium platform, so who the f cares analyzing it down to which language is this - is this a language - am I a lemon? I have enough desperation in my life. I need to seek solace from it in my prayer life, not invent more there.

Since someone mentioned this as my thread I started I'm perfectly fine with it going all over the place. The path from where I was to where I'm going is still being defined. So from that perspective yes different ways of looking at things are welcomed IMO especially in doctrinal. We've all had such a "Westboro Baptist" fundamentalist view of scriptures that other approaches may be freeing. i still see people involved in TWI going through life with a series of delusional self-talk way quotes. That crap has to be broken out with a chisel almost it seems. I will say that all my attempts to look at things "from God's perspective" kind of just lead back to playing god and that elitist attitude I'm trying to change from the cult days. People suck at playing God, me the worst of all.

I always enjoy it when I can bring my half to a battle of wits ;)

Raf, if you want to hammer the dragon in your garage, please feel free to do so. Just don't post pictures - :biglaugh: Just a little levity there. Anyway on a response to your scriptural references to tongues, doesn't Bullinger mark those as a figure of speech metonymy - an exchange of part for the whole - meaning the tongue and language or the use of the tongue for language related purposes are interchangeable in the verses that the figure appears? There are other figures of speech with the tongue as well - like "the tongue is an unruly evil". Anyway what language is literal and what is figurative is probably something to consider in this discussion as well.

You're right. Samarin was a linguist. The terminology is indeed difficult because I think they are trying to differentiate between different elements that had all previously been lumped together. Everything was lumped under glossolalia with no distinction previously. I can appreciate the efforts to delineate. To me I would rather include the logic and detail in my consideration as opposed to censoring it because of some perceived bias. Some of my struggle in this discussion was trying to come up to speed on the whole field of linguistics. There still is a whole lot more there I don't know. Yes there are different definitions describing similar things that originate either from theology or linguistics. Some of the crossover can be confusing. There seemed to be a distinction and everything I learned about basic linguistics indicates an ability to phonetically compare languages by breaking down constructs similar to words and sentences. Linguistics shows a distinction between gibberish and SIT/.../... Yes we agree on this.

Your point outlines here besides the doctrinal ones seem pretty accurate to me. The doctrinal ones we are avoiding in this forum, and taking up in the Doctrinal if people want to discuss that. The positive way to state this point is that there is absolutely no way you could know the experiences in my life are fake. Your viewpoint is that all of us in TWI were faking it and we were duped. My viewpoint differs in that I agree with you that we were duped on this topic yet I still retain my childlike faith and view this as part of my relationship with my Savior, and that being much more important than "the gift" and "the operation of the gift". In fact I see teachings on "the gift" basically pointing towards yourself as the source of power. That's absolutely wrong. While I can understand your reaction to being duped, I think for me it is vitally important to not further TWI's false work in cutting me off from Jesus. Yes - this investigation, while interesting in its detail, ended up as a wash in proving anything. I read 3 or 4 anecdotal stories and repeated the one 2nd hand story I heard. If any of these were recorded it would be evidence. None were recorded. The only logical conclusion is that there is no evidence either way on this point other than anecdotes. The reason anecdotes aren't evidence is that they could be fictional and invented by the hype surrounding TWI. I do have a feeling that God doesn't operate in a way to stand around and let humans detect Him. There still is the whole freedom of will aspect - where you have to believe and trust. The times personally I have proved God in my life aren't like putting out a fleece, but more like believing and moving and seeing God work as I move. I think the main one is that TWI fronted SIT and those manifestations as "proof" of God's existence. You can't really use anything in this world as proof that God exists that will absolutely refute the naysayers. It has to still boil down to a personal choice.

On the original thread I shared my perspective, which after all of the research gone through seems pretty simplistic. My first experience with tongues was prior to TWI and related to prayer and probably stemmed from Oral Roberts teachings. There was none of the intermediate class manipulation or none of the PFAL buildup and hype. That set the pattern for my story that tongues is basically prayer of sorts. My TWI experiences were everything all of you had on the negative side of this - rote instruction, INT class "mechanics" practice, and the TWI specific use of them - "Jimmy please speak in tongues and interpret" the way nobody else in Christianity does - all along with a "look down your nose spritual elitist attitude" because you are now "more fully instructed" as a believer. We examined some theologians - Poythress and Samarin as well as 2 or 3 others. We argued a lot during this portion and didn't agree on conclusions - one of the things positive I took out of that was it actually is a new way of looking at things post TWI colored glasses - examining my attitudes I saw an immediate discounting of theologians because of a spiritual elitist attitude. I had to deal with that before I could objectively get to looking at the idealogy. I like this because as a new pattern of biblical research I check the commentaries rather than ignoring them - in a great attempt to lose the attitude. I will share that this attitude has been particularly pesky to me and hard to get rid of - I see the spiritual elitist creep up at times all over the place. One of the conclusions that reversed what I originally thought was we had been taught in TWI that the devil can't fake SIT. Abundant evidence to the contrary indicates that not only the devil can fake it, but so can everyone from the Pope to an atheist. Most of the analysis linguistically in the studies we covered referred to a series of tapes of different people purporting to be SIT on tape, and the analysis of what came out. Several people on the thread shared stories of interpretation of tongues being understood in the prayer meeting by someone else. I think there was at least one firsthand witness to this - I had heard tales of this but had not experienced it personally. The most credible 2nd hand story I encountered involved some of the Zaire contingent in a meeting - they didn't speak English - the story was their tongue was in English and the interpretation French and it was experienced by 10+ people. None of these stories could be reproduced, are on tape, or have conclusive supporting or contradicting evidence in any way. There also is the topic of glossallalia - which seems to indicate that the Catholics have known about this gibberish for centuries but not said much about it. There are many many problems with this topic doctrinally, which range from the topic itself to TWI's rote legalistic handling of it missing the point doctrinally. If people want to delve into that side, the Doctrinal forum is open. My conclusion at the end of the discussion and study wasn't a whole lot different than where I started. I still SIT as part of my quirky way I pray to my God and my Savior. I still have my simplistic faith view. I have a greater realization and appreciation for fraud. I think this topic, like many other divisive topics that TWI originated, was just that - dividing people off of the body of Christ - cause controversy, present VP as THE expert, become a demi-god. I feel much of this is covered under Paul's statement "no other foundation can be laid except Jesus Christ". Building on a false foundation causes a structure with no real strength or protection.

By definition yes we are excluded. We are giving the reference right in the quote. Plagiarism would be trying to pass off "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" as our own words without citing the reference.

Raf very honestly my behavior on this thread earlier caused me to look in the mirror and re-evaluate some things. I also was not pleased with the reflection. I'm thankful for the personal growth that ensued though and I think this thread for me personally and for many was a great source of reflection on how to recover from TWI - where do you go from there? What I saw in myself was some vestiges of TWI ego - the need to "be right" or "be more scripturally accurate" or "be the spiritual person in the room". The elitist TWI attitude. Knowledge still puffs up and charity still builds up. However people choose to personally worship God in prayer is cool with me - some do the tongues thing, others like the holy hands thing (I was always more of an air guitar player myself), others like silence and meditation and a burning candle. Like giving, that's their personal choice, preference, and freedom. Some sing, some cry, some scream. I think whenever you think of Him and however you think of Him when you do it triggers something special for you. For those who no longer identify with Christianity, perhaps there is a form of meditation that might fulfill a void. Self-reflection, peacefulness, and the outdoors always have been attractions for me. Tongues whatever else it is it is supposed to be for worship. Worship in general is good for the soul in some format. Where I'm at now on all this topic is just making sure I have something going on in that category of life to be balanced and feel balanced. Peace out.

WW - why - do you need to discuss it more? My take is it doesn't matter - even if I was faking it I believe God would be big enough to hear me and understand and know what I'm praying about. And humor me in my practices because He knows what I've been through. My beliefs haven't changed just my perspective. I'm sure I have a lot more things in my life other than that one that God has to humor that are of more consequence. I haven't run into the TWI practice of the on-command interp and prophecy in Christianity outside of TWI. "Joey SIT and interpret, please." I don't practice that anymore and don't seem to miss or need the rote practice to stroke the ego. Prayer suffices. Building up brothers and sisters with intent is better.

Yes - awesome - thanks. I hadn't seen that page by John Juedes yet - great detailed work breaking down VP's plagiarism of JE Stiles. There's even more irony in this plagiarism. JE Stiles if you recall is the one who led VP into speaking in tongues after he faked it onstage at an Oral Roberts revival according to his account in "The Way Living in Love" by Elena Whiteside. What a way to repay your self-described spiritual mentor, no? I mean he could have adopted JE Stiles work and book as part of a coursework for a class, or even put it on the "Recommended Reading List" for leaders like he used to do. But that reference is nowhere to be found. VP repayed his spiritual mentor who led him into SIT when others couldn't by stealing his work and publishing it as his own. The mark of a true narcissistic morally deficient sociopath.

Yes you're right - I typed the wrong city.

Even sketchier foundations - the collaterals. I knew people in the ministry that had read those books so many times that they would try and counsel people solely from collaterals material. Some collateral chapters were predecessors to VP's books. The impression I get is VP and the chapters like "4 Crucified", "The Day JC Died", and similar were part of the flim-flam operation. "If you can't trust the church on how many died with Jesus, how can you trust them on who he was and what he did for us?" This gradually undermined standard Christian teachings and trust in them. After that, rather than fully developing any of that he had the Research Department write 2 books for him, doing the work for him with no credit. Other chapters were like a STS cleaned up and written down. And "The Law of Believing" stuff? One of VP's contemporary's was Norman Vincent Peale - who wrote "The Power of Positive Thinking", which is that kind of stuff except in a whole book not a 20 page chapter. I bet a good portion of even that chapter was mimic'd from Peale. Peale was too well known in the day to directly plagiarize. Much more well-known than VP ever was. Many chapters were from transcribed STS teachings, and never any more effort put into them than the effort VP put in the week before the sermon. Yet they (collaterals) were sold as our spiritual foundations to Biblical research. Laziness, plagiarism. Biblical Research now in TWI? It is completely non-existent. They even re-defined the word to mean not looking for anything new, which is actually completely 180 degrees opposite of the meaning of the word research. R&D in the world today means allocating resources to discover new things. It is not re-search just because you can cleverly break down the word into 2 parts and have a sing-song childlike parent-child phrase you can repeat to someone if what they are studying isn't something you've heard before. All work done in TWI literary-wise now can be described by a Ralph Waldo Emerson phrase - "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". TWI's total focus is remaining consistent with previous teachings. And they will go over and over mag articles and teachings to ferret out any little nuance of new research (or personality) and remove it. Research and plagiarism. The Way can redefine black as white, and their brainwashed followers accept it without question. That's how you can identify them. Christians are supposed to be identifiable by the badge of their love. TWIts are identified by their oxymoron little deluded statements - like "research means re-search" or "believing equals receiving". You can tell they think they are so clever and right on as they lecture you in a parent-child voice about it. Their ego is them deluding themselves.

Plagiarism is stupid and lazy scholarship. In true scholarly endeavors, everyone knows that citing sources makes you look smarter and your work look better and more researched and solid even if it is not. Of course in religious circles who you cite can get you judged, labeled and pigeonholed. But that's the same in philosophy. To cite nobody in literary works kind of makes it fiction. The more I think about this the more I think that all signs point to VP being a very lazy man in the ways he researched things. For example, he would lie about having all 350+ pneuma hagion verses in his head by memory, then sitting down at a checked in motel room and writing RHST. When you compare, there is > 70% material similar or identical there as in JE Stiles book which was published earlier. So to me when you put it together it really looks like VP didn't need a motel room to focus on eliminating distractions, he needed it for masking his 18th century scribe work copying most of Stiles book without anyone being the wiser. Plagiarism is lying and stealing and laziness all mixed into one. And yes, the irony of basing a research ministry on his works should really not be lost by anyone.

Amen brother

TWI is not alone Jim Bakker - Not as big as 70s

I think that's pretty good actually, don't you guys? If everyone has a voice, can connect, and can discuss the part of our story that intertwined with TWI for the purpose of making sense of our individual story and growth and continuing our story and growth? Of course I say this now being all conciliatory and tomorrow I'll be off on another rant somewhere probably. ;)