chockfull

Here's a good starting point. Jim Doop and Steve Heefner were the leaders of the west and east movements. If you search on "Doop" and "Heefner" in the search box you will get a lot of hits. Also, paging WordWolf. And last but not least, penworks book "Undertow" in the timeline overlaps the tail end of that story. So pick up a copy. Great stuff there.

There were two basic Jesus movement groups VP usurped - one on the west coast and one on the east coast. He came in, made friends, got them out to summer school in Ohio, WOW'd them with conspiracy theory, and obtained their allegiance. Then he took over from the two genuine spiritual founders of these groups and strong-armed them aside to put in place his early Corpse grads like T0wnshend. There are various accounts of this on GS. The Way tree teachings grew from this takeover. If you think about it the tree analogy offers a really great explanation for why $$$$ should flow to HQ and "the Word" should flow from HQ to each little twiggy leaflet there you. It was an especially effective way to control those from the hippie movement who how to say this whose brains were especially attracted to visual metaphors. "No, man, you can't just be a stick. You have to be a twig, man". Others here can elucidate in far more deets than I can.

We could sum up the teaching for those who are in debt and can never take it. A. Review of VPW's plagiarism in the Holy Spirit field - comprehensive. B. Long stories of Old Testament prophets read through C. Zoology of devil spirit classification. Like all classes they now have multiple teachers so if one leaves they don't have to pay for re-doing the whole class. Did I miss anything important?

Just curious - do they still have those "review" session summaries before the next session? They were so awesome. I remember some of the ones on tape done by some Stepford wives looking lady with a facial expression that was downright frightening. I mean almost as frightening as killer clowns frightening.

You mean sitting on your @$$ behind a curtain like the Wizard of Oz manipulating all the puppet strings isn't as effective of an outreach strategy as actually going out on the field among the people and teaching and interacting? Who would have thunk?

Charlene, my unconfirmed USA numbers count from around the vicinity of 10 years ago was about 4500 in the United States total. Even then they were making all the fellowship coordinators get permission from the Trunk office to remove a member from the rolls. Even then they wanted this info concealed - even the region coordinators didn't have hard numbers of other regions. I don't know hard numbers now, I'm sure that is something the BODummies wants to keep concealed. My guess would be about 50% of those numbers currently, after rfr went on various rampages kicking people out. I mean 2500 may not be 100% accurate, but I bet you it is not an order of magnitude off, like it's not 25,000 in the US. Basically the Way's membership in the US (which is kind of funny because on one hand they say they don't have any members, on the other they have these processes to keep people on the books?) is about the same as a medium sized community church in a larger city.

Hey Out'n'About. Good to see you here. Have a slice of pumpkin pie on the house for Thanksgiving. You know I am also reluctant to reveal personal information on a website like this publicly. I figure if someone wants to know, they will message me. I'm not afraid of Inspector Gadget L1nder or anything, if they figure out my personal info they can still f off. Yea, the Way is desperate to sell a fundamentalist controlling religion that nobody wants. And they are too stupid to see it or change.

Good to see you OldSkool. Happy Thanksgiving to you and all Greasespotters too :) I'll catch up via PM too....

You know, that sounds like a reasonable formula for a balanced life. Let's look at where TWI is on this scale. 1. Faith, hope, charitable love - faith replaced by mental gymnastics, hope killed by the heavy hand of the leaders, love is twisted and hidden behind caste systems and fake smiles 2. Embracing family, friends, loved ones - Family ties strained due to "true household" teachings, friends are either "innies" who can talk to each other without ratting each other out to leadership, assigned friends by assigning fellowships, or "friends" you are selling a class to. Loved ones? Strained relationships and meaningless sacrifices. 3. Education? Career? - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Education plan is nobody goes to college with a student loan, because it's debt. Career? Maybe you too can come live in a trailer and work for a pittance so your kids can get a free education at Bowling Green University. You know, the education you could never obtain because you're in a cult? 4. Community, neighbors - pretty much universally hate the Way. On the field, neighbors don't know you - they know your landlord who they can call with complaints. Many complaints are parking - due to the Way trying to run their church in areas not zoned for commercial activity - so they use up all the residential parking. I mean at least community churches buy their own parking. Instead of investing in a more permanent structure as the rest of the culture does with churches to show investment in the community, the way survives on meetings in free library rooms, community centers, apartment complex common areas, anywhere free or cheap. They use communities like they use people. 5. Financial plan to strengthen? - hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. 15% abundant sharing or "God won't even look in your direction". Send all your money in to HQ. Don't get in debt by investing in yourself for business reasons or education. The budget guidelines from their leadership structure says 80% of all money goes to HQ, 20% stays on the field. The 20% that stays usually goes to pay one salary for a regional representative. This is a financial plan to strengthen kind of like the Catholic church - bring all the money in and build lavish testaments to worship. Polish up that auditorium that gets little to no use during the week, and has about 80 people sitting in it directly even listening to the teaching, which is masked behind crappy music, sucked dry of any personality, and manipulated by the puppet master behind the scenes. So on a scale of 1 to 10, TWI ranks EPIC FAIL. Just remember this: Twi is sitting on a nest egg of $64 MILLION that was amassed thru decades of exploitation --- so they, unlike what they preach, are VERY INTERESTED in watching their investments/monies accrue each and every year. They certainly don't mind that their followers drive oil-leaking beaters to menial jobs. Nor do they help to fund any type of witnessing or class events in your area. That dime is on YOU. They know how to shame and guilt the innies out of every last lingering penny. And so it goes........... No retirement, No equity.......No problem. At least, NOT for twi. Correct. TWI always has money. TWI's followers - not so much.

"I'm sure there are legitimate hurts, but you have that in any group" Geshem, you are already starting to rationalize like a true Corpse member. I mean collateral damage, you're going to have that in any war, right? I mean spoken like a true Iraqi minister of intelligence - current count - 98% of Corpse under one of their deleterious manufactured statuses. But hey, we're going to win the war. There are always casualties. Frankly, shaving one's head and dressing in a sheet would be an improvement to a lifelong buy-in to a doctrine and group that would prevent a child from buying a home or going to college with a student loan due to fundamentalist Biblical views and legalistic rules. A life doomed as forever uneducated renters at the whim and mercy of the landlords with degrees and mortgages. In a ministry that tried to start a college but never could because their mortgage policy would effectively prevent 99.9% from obtaining a doctorate degree. But hey they too could obtain God's deliverance. They could go on staff. That way they could be in a salary range bordering on the national poverty line, and thus be qualified by living in trailers at HQ for their children to qualify for Pell grants, thus attending college for free while avoiding that horrible debt and the terrible caste scrutiny placed on it families are under. I know, you're young and don't care right now. You don't have a family of your own. But do yourself a favor - join a ministry that is good to those who do.

I'm glad for your deliverance. I'm kind of sorry for all of you guys because in spite of great healing that happens when people believe and trust God, it doesn't mean organizations are worth your trust. Thanks for being sorry for all the people that were hurt. That is empathy you will never find in the upper echelons of the way. Best of wishes on your journey. God has different stories unfold for each of us. I couldn't tell you why mine has taken turns it has, but from my time in the way I found a spouse, got married, had kids, and moved on. I can't stay quiet about their tiered caste system Christianity, fundamentalist doctrine keeping followers destitute and vagrant, and bully-like behavior towards peers in leadership. That's not a matter of whether I'm hurt or not, actually not so much as scarred, but the point rather is about ongoing functioning evil and acknowledging and exposing it.

One of the interesting things to reflect on about the collaterals is that many of the chapters were put together from Sunday service notes from VPs sermons. Teachings were summarized and written in a chapter format. So basically doctrine for TWI has devolved from individuals researching the Bible to a "cargo cult" like following of VP's teachings from the freewheeling 60s and early 70s. Oh, and not the mainstream class ones, but the secondary teachings, because PFAL was re-taught twice. It is kind of ironic to note that in all likelihood the entire basis for re-regurgitation that the ministry survives on currently are several teachings which probably represent less than 7 days of VP's effort in research. I mean most of the children's Sunday School level material in the blue book is that way. Like one example - "How to Avoid Being a Failure". This chapter basically consists of plagiarizing one of KC Pillai's oriental customs teachings on 10 pieces of silver, and a poem probably lifted from anonymous. I mean this really represents the dumbing down of Christianity. Quite a contrast from Jesus sitting with all the elders discussing the scrolls as a youth.

Yes many modern churches have a similar approach. Many like the works of Dave Ramsey and utilize them as teaching materials for any who are interested. This you could categorize as a loving godly approach. TWI has a debt policy. Their view of people who have any kind of debt is that they are milk Christians who can't digest the meat of the Word, therefore they have a policy that people aren't able to take their Advanced Class until they have no debt. They can't be fellowship coordinators, they can't go way disciple, they can't go into the Corps. They also lie about this, saying they don't have a debt policy, they have a teaching from the Bible and requirements for classes or programs. This is a lie. It is a policy. Otherwise, why would they restrict entry into any advanced training or leadership program tied to it? How closed-minded are they about this? Well, I personally know of more than one time that it was brought up at top leadership placement meetings in general discussions with the BODummies, and then immediately shut down. What I mean by shut down is that the topic was closed for discussion in an open mic session immediately. I also know of a Corps person who did a good deal of research on the topic, and sent it in presenting it in a very loving and non-confrontational way. The intent of the paper was to try and get the thickheaded BOD to soften the stance and the policy, more like the Bible's approach. This individual was dropped from the Corps and kicked out of the ministry for basically presenting the research. The same kind of vicious response from top leadership as you see with what's his face presenting the paper on adultery. TWI has a debt policy. And vicious reactions to people who try to show them from the scriptures anything to soften their hard line stance. They purport to be a ministry with Biblical research in the title, yet they close their minds to the scriptures teachings and approaches. This latest installation of the caste system, the "Bible study coordinator" IMO arose because of the grass roots movement among the TWI followers to basically ignore the debt teaching and get home mortgages and student loans anyway. So many areas have nobody that was dumb enough to rent in bad areas of town just to have the title of fellowship coordinator. Or you would have basically 80% of the local remaining followers - the ones with roots in the community and kids in school - all of those types would have mortgages. Your basic follower living in civil disobedience to this hard-line mandate. But then there was nobody "qualified to lead", and the Corpse transient debt-less renters in bad areas of town would have to cover more and more fellowships as leaders. So this is their compromise. Let the 80% have a few of their own little get-togethers, but named differently. Stubborn, stupid, and abusive.

Well, seeing as VP's story seems to parallel a lot of stories you would hear on MTV's "Behind the Music" about rock stars, motor coaches, alcohol, and women, that quote really isn't such a huge surprise. Origin: "Glenn Frey revealed that the title came to him one day when he was riding on the freeway with a drug dealer known as "The Count".[1] Frey asked the dealer to slow down and the response was, "What do you mean? It's life in the fast lane!"["

So I ran into a TWIt a bit ago. They were explaining to me the new hierarchy in TWI. Besides the BOD, and the Corpse field leadership, we have a couple new classifications of leaders: 1. Household Fellowship Coordinators - for those with no debt 2. Bible Study Coordinators - for those with debt. Apparently the hard-line stance TWI has taken against mortgages and student loans has intensified. All of the followers of TWI have been complaining about the debt policy for the last 10 years. The BODummies response is this. Make a new layer in the caste system. Now tadaaa, we have a new lowest level of leadership in TWI. What pray tell, would be the difference between these two classifications of people, you ask? Hmmm. Well, I guess one could coordinate the study of the Bible, but can't coordinate fellowship right? So one group you go to and you can study the Bible, but because they have a mortgage there isn't the same full sharing relationship? What's next - rules for how long you can hang out after fellowship? Joe, I'm sorry but it's 9:00pm. Since you're in a Bible study, not a fellowship, I'm afraid you're going to have to leave. You're welcome to read the Bible and sit in the meeting, but you can't really fully participate in the cookies because you have a mortgage. Sheesh - you don't even have to go to a Westboro Baptist church for the service. You can experience all of the same ignorance and hate right in someone's home. And chip in $10 at the same time where $8 of it goes straight to the pope at HQ. Aren't you so glad you have a new president? Making cutting edge rightly divided decisions like this? I mean with these decisions we should see the Way on the magazine covers of all the Christian periodicals as the fastest growing church in the world, right?

It says quite a bit. To spell it out: JYDL was knowingly complicit in covering up LCM (2nd pres.) escapades (adultery) which led to the lawsuits. JYDL worked with RFR to plot and execute this specific cover-up. RFR later lied under oath stating no prior knowledge of these affairs going on. Displays how they control information through bribery Displays seared conscience 24 years ago Displays a Pharisee-like cover-up of adultery by JYDL as long as 24 years ago. If any of these TWI Pharisees in charge were genuine, they would denounce their past publicly, apologize to those they hurt, disband the organization, disperse the assets, and start over with a new wineskin that has the capacity to hold new wine. But they won't, because the lie they have bought into selling out to promulgate is their meal ticket and source of wealth.

Interesting details. So from a pragmatic perspective, vp died because of a superstitious religious reason to ignore readily available medical treatment in a timely fashion for ocular cancer. and years of cigarettes of course probably are behind the lung cancer. and years of boozing behind the liver cancer. and the ocular cancer spread to the brain. From a biblical perspective, it's just weird. vp taught all this stuff about administrations, but then behaved like all that priesthood stuff applied to him? or that's what he more identified with over grace in making life decisions? It is kind of funny. People read a passage in the Bible, and they identify with it, and they think "that is me". When it comes to doing that to better yourself, that's usually a good thing. However, when people do that with a perspective of how that relates to them from a historical fulfillment of destiny type of view, it jacks with their identity and injects a very strong delusional basis that is usually followed by delusional detrimental action. Maybe that's my over-complicated way of saying people thinking they are Jesus get martyr complexes. My grace way of looking at things is grace is the freedom to break free from ANY conformity the past imposes upon me and moving forward with the perfect thing for writing my story with God. So in the future if I'm faced with a decision like this, I will first get the surgery and then install the doofus. Figuratively speaking. Aaron's f#@$%ing dead. He doesn't care. And doofuses can always wait. They aren't f!@#$%ing doing anything anyway. :)

"Was vpw a good man?" for God to decide - I don't own the scales of Justice. but you only need to insert one little adjective into that statement to make it one that resounds with a universal YES! the word "con"

Beyond all that, in the years I have observed him, JY has become more and more aloof, and displayed more and more of the same Pharisaiac characteristics of rfr based leadership. non-approachable, elite. superiority tone of condescension in communication. he has participated in and carried so many of the back room decisions resulting in the devastation of lives that he has the same blood on his hands rfr does. i mean just one example - imo the whole cffm ministry exists because of @$$holish Machiavellian behavior at the top of TWI that has basically been modeled through EVERY presidency in TWI. You have to realize the whole culture of TWI leadership - Board of Directors - is not like a university or normal corporation Board of Directors - where you have a number of accomplished well-educated people collaborating together to further the best interests of a university of company. It is a group of people whose education basically has been within the organization - low levels of education and high levels of control. A group of Machiavellian elitist Pharisees. It is a dictatorship. rfr with her little sidekick Donna ran everything and the 2 underling guys basically rubber-stamped it all. Why? Because they saw non-consenting predecessors shipped to Siberia. It is a succession of Pharisees. And the only thing you can be guaranteed about Pharisees is that the next one will be 3-fold the child of hell as the previous. Why do you think the non-winning candidate is posting up his uniquely crafted resume on the internet? Because he has a deep sense of security about his necessity in the next Pharisee administration? No, more like the mob type mentality he's afraid of getting whacked. good fellas. sent to the unemployment lines by his peer. and who is going to hire him? become the next worldwide outreach coordinator for the jallyroll organization? film jesus my diameter part 2? Steer clear of them there Pharisees. We aren't living in the past, we're living in the prudent. Successions of Pharisees isn't going to cleanse the Way. That story would look more like the Hunger Games if it happened in a genuine sense.

not holding my breath that a leopard after 28 years can change its spots.

MRAP, IMO this is how TWI keeps people hooked long after they see the wizard behind the curtain. Good Christian folks wanting to show loyalty to an organization that taught them the Bible, wanting to change it for the better, wanting to influence the outcome. They don't realize that with the whole counter-culture that exists behind the scenes in TWI leadership that there is no way any of the top people will ever allow others to influence them or effect organizational change. One of the main reasons is the culture is set up like a dictatorship. So even though new people as quoted here "never heard RR teach" she was in control over EVERYTHING. Just like LCM was before. Just like VPW was before that. And just like JY de Loser will be next. He's worked way too hard over too many years violating principle to kiss foot to give it all up now for a more democratic leadership culture. I personally stayed in TWI past when I should have in efforts to effect godly change. Praying for people, speaking up tactfully, etc. All because I hadn't yet come to the realization of Jesus words - "you can't put new wine into old wineskins". The corrupt culture and practices of TWI's leadership are an old wineskin. Giving a face lift to VPW, whitewashing all the history, all of that is old wineskin behavior. It would not hold the new wine of a genuine movement of God - it would all leak out over the floor, leaving only the old framework and structure.

IMO this is a perfect example of why JY gets the top position over R@pp. He will follow unethical, non-biblical orders and courses of action without question. R@ppenstein maybe was a couple steps behind lock-step. In other words, foxy loxy chose her successor just like VP did - like was shared in "VP and Me" - he was the one that whenever he was told to jump didn't ask "how high?" This is why TWI is a cult - the culture survives the personality of leadership. Allan, sorry you and your family went through that. As a good Christian and fine kiwi you certainly did not deserve this.

The new theme doesn't deserve legitimacy via association with the Eagles, one of the best bands of all time. But it does bring up the point in quality of Way Productions: Old - Pressed Down New - "The Renewed Mind is the Key" - the soup 'nuff said.

Bapsy I didn't attend Hindu or Buddhist gatherings or ceremonies, it is just that with a less elitist attitude I found myself more readily exchanging ideas with people of different religions. Previously those conversations had been limited because people pick up on a closed-minded attitude, one that I didn't even realize I had while in TWI. For example, one of my Buddhist friends and I have ongoing conversations about God and Jesus, and the nature of Buddhism, which he says is just learning about yourself through observation. It's cool to learn his perspective, and share mine. Maybe i pick up something from the exchange too, like about being self-aware and observing, while not accepting his overall framework or perspective of the religion as my own. Now maybe people will look at this like "what's the difference?". I would say the difference is people being more open and willing to exchange with me. When I was TWI door-to-door, or accosting people in malls, or in planned outreach events I never felt that way. There was always pressure from somewhere to go for a hard sell environment. People were a byproduct of my self-serving goal of furthering putting together a class according to planned times we needed to make our goals. Oh, but people will say it wasn't your self-serving goal you were moving the word over the world. Here's the key: God moves His Word over the world through His Ways which are higher than ours. Not through the motivated efforts of deluded followers hard selling a boring and ludicrous class offered by a gang of controlling psychopaths. If I was successful at selling the class to people then I was drawing them in to a lifetime of control like I had experienced. That is a little more of the perspective and discovery I have gone through post TWI. I'm sure all religious groups have an element of outreach and selling the idea of membership into their group, but honestly, the churches I've been drawn to lately are not like that. They are more about rescue and genuine service.

What is after TWI is wide open actually. It's tremendous freedom. But it is daunting to face, isn't it? Some leave Christianity all together, others attend mainstream churches, still others assemble small fellowships. Some start or join splinter groups with most of the doctrine intact, but more loving they say. From my perspective, 2 things didn't change for me after leaving TWI - 1) God and 2) Me and my perspective towards God I have continued to function in my community, running across and fellowshipping with many different brands of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. and learning to appreciate all of the above without the same elitist prejudicial attitude that I had being part of "God's royal exclusive household" in the Way, which in all actuality was a learned type of Westboro Baptist attitude of hate. I have attended several churches and still do at times and found one that my family is most comfortable with to attend regularly. We have friends there and have participated in a small groups and small serving opportunities like helping a local food truck feed the poor. I had this huge wall in my mind over the trinity at first. But people don't really teach a lot on the trinity, and even when it comes up in conversation it's more about talking about God and Jesus and Jesus' authority than it is anything else. Can I say to Jesus like Thomas "my Lord and God?" Sure I can especially in the eastern oriental sense. In other words I can sort out my own doctrine and it isn't a big deal, and I don't need to get in knock down drag out fights over it. Especially when you are supposed to know Christians by their love, not their mental acrobatics in showing you the points where Jesus is a different personality than God in a combative fashion. I even went to an old church I attended in my youth where they did the more Catholic doxology and Apostles Creed. It didn't bother me - I was more interested in the closeness and love of the group than what protocol their services followed. Interestingly enough after going back after years I saw that church had stayed true to its roots - its roots were in service to the community. They STILL do this - all sorts of different groups meet there freely and they have an elementary school now too. To me this stood out in stark contrast to TWI, who does absolutely nothing for communities other than spewing elitist indoctrination at them. I told a few people in a close small group about my TWI experiences, so some of the church body I fellowship with is aware. But I don't generally offer up a lot of information about it to casual acquaintances. In general, I feel if you act with a social congruence, mainstream Christianity can be a blessing and an added support. Oh and there is the added benefit of your life not being under the thumb of false apostles and prophets. You can't really say enough about that benefit. But from my experiences post TWI with mainstream Christianity, it's OK to be afraid, it's OK to be damaged, it's OK to struggle to fit in. I remember walking up to the pastor after a message and telling him "I never thought I'd go to a church again, but this one is all right". I think a key here is to be authentic and not elitist. Figure out what you can share with another Christian that is authentic but not going into all of the weird and gory details of the twisted TWI experience. I would also offer up a suggestion that doctrine although important is less important than connection. You want to find a church or a group of people where you can feel free to connect on a real level, not just superficial. I mean move towards where God is leading you to love and healing. I mean look where TWI doctrine has led them even now, with TWI's current theme focusing on basically mental gymnastics to implement "believing" which is a verb which will overcome the world, just not the world in which you can live with a credit card and a mortgage and a student loan to better yourself because you are not allowed. That's where supposed accurate doctrine leads them. Me - I would say their doctrine is twisted. The twisted manipulation of scripture and lives from an elitist cult is no measure when you put it up against the genuine love of a Christian community, even if everyone in it is all messed up. Including myself. Or maybe I should say especially myself. So my suggestion is move out and connect even though we're afraid and damaged. And if the TWI muckities want to criticize my honesty and vulnerability then I'm happy to stand by and wait until I get a front row seat for Jesus Christ's confrontation of their unrepentant, unloving and corrupt @$$es at the bema. Peace out brethren.