chockfull

penworks book Undertow gives detailed insight into early Corps years as well as how the Way does Biblical research. A must read for understanding the Way and what they call "Biblical Research". Karl Kahler's book - I just read through it recently. It has detailed accounts about early ministry days with Way West and Way East and Doop and Heefner. More detailed even than posts here. It is $6 for a .pdf copy. Kristin's book details the largely hidden swinger club aspects of top Way leadership among other things. All of these books represent a more accurate depiction of The Way International's history than anything the Way has released. The Way has released 2 history books - one written by Mrs. VPW called "Born Again to Serve". Or more accurately written by others from Mrs. W's memorabilia collection and reviewed and confirmed by her. The book was published shortly before she died - she had no desire to write books at that age. That was all pushed by Rosie. That book basically is a VP biography from 1916 to 1961. The other is no longer sold in the Way bookstore - Elena Whiteside's book "The Way Living in Love". This was more of a hippie child depiction of way history and includes all of the supposed revelation to VPW of snow pumps and God talking directly to him all surrounding a time period where he went to an Oral Roberts revival and faked speaking in tongues on the stage with a group of other ministers. Current pushes in the Way are to hide this material and whitewash it generally. One can read I John and know where that leads spiritually.

Long story short the devil. Satan, transforming himself into a female serpent for the sole purpose of luring eve into a homosexual relationship. This was the original sin. As proof, Michaelangelo painted this picture with Eve, the fruit and the serpent and the serpent looks female. He must of had rebbelashun. Either that or it was the female goddess Hermaphrodites. Yeah. One of the two.

Watching the Scientology series is enough for me. Some of the parallels are chilling.

One way to highlight the schedule during this time is to take a look at all the meetings we were required to hold. I was reminded of something Leah Remini said on one of the Scientology expose shows, how Scientology keeps people so busy they don't have time to think. Sunday - fellowship - or a Branch/Limb meeting or STS hookup Monday - fellowship coordinators Tuesday - fellowship Wednesday - Corps Night Thursday - fellowship Friday - outreach events (sometimes can take this night off) Saturday - branch coordinators once a month face to face with Limb. Limb had similar Region requirements As you can see, there is never a complete 24 hours to schedule downtime, you are always being pulled one way or another. How would this affect an individual? No time to think any thoughts but the party line, too busy implementing things to step back and reflect. New policies would have you compromise a little more than the last one did. A counselor pointed out to me because i couldn't see it for myself how each series of things the group would ask us to do is a little more and more of a personal compromise, but in small enough increments that we wouldn't notice. Then one day you wake up with an identity crisis and wonder how you got all the way over there.

Let me dig around for that time period and I will post on it after I gather a few details.

very true. little known video of Craig's Homiletics Teacher

I'm not done telling stories in this thread, but I did have the goal in mind for at least covering the timeline before Christmas 2016. My Christmas present to GreaseSpot Better than a date-fruit-nut bread thingy. Merry Christmas GreaseSpot!!!!

Classes continue to run according to Vision and Direction. Over time, minimum registration requirements are removed as classes aren't just seeing enough interest beyond Way kids being forced into them. The INT class is remade in much of the same manner as the Foundational Class. The Advanced Class follows a little different pattern. Rather than ramping up for a video and re-doing the whole class all at once, staff members and teachers are used to do individual segment teachings, added to the Way's archive to protect against defects to never again will they have to redo a class. Way Disciples continues as a program - the "modern sales" force spearheading outreach. Way Corps numbers drop to the point that graduating Corps photos (first from Gunnison and then HQ where Corps program is moved) look like a 15 Chiefs and 5 Indians photo. Purges continue - in small and large veins. An example - one son of a clergyman in IO starts up a Ponzi scheme selling fake stocks. V1ct0r H1rschfi3ld. He ends up ripping off one of Donna's sisters for a fair sum of money. They get ....ed, call Rosie. She basically has an interrogation go throughout the involved state, asking people if they were aware of the stock sales scheme. Many were aware he was selling stocks on a periphery level, some were investors. Basically anybody who had any knowledge of this in the whole state was put on probation, kicked out of the ministry, shunned. The Ponzi purge. STS teachings continue according to the same plan and mold. Way mag articles the same. Way Productions, the same Nice, even flowing, vanilla. Yes the ministry is set up on rails to carry it far forward into the future. And, don't blink. 2016. Rosie's time as the President of the Way is up. Her age will force her into semi-retirement, mandated to only work part-time at HQ, not full time, like Howard and Don were retired beforehand, so the precedent is set. Whatever webs she can weave have to be done part time.

Debt. More goings-on at the BOD level. So the topic of debt causing all the purges during Max Forehead's reign never goes away and never will. Rosie has R1c0 M@gn3ll1 head up some kind of research on the debt topic, which basically consists of some real VP level dancing around a topic. I mean we learn in this Corps teaching a new dimension to Bullinger's dispensations. Apparently God set up administrations like VP taught us, but there were some things that could change administration to administration, but there were other things that did not change from administration to administration. Like for example, the tithe. The tithe was one of those things that never changed when administrations changed. it is a universal truth, like oxygen and breathing, God intends you to send $$$$$$ to the Way. Debt, apparently, also is one of those things that never changed through administrations. It is always wrong. Yeah. New light for our day and time. Apparently R1c0's stint as an apostle lasted for exactly one teaching. This is public. What is going on behind the scenes with spiders and flies? Rosie at this time has one of her closest relationships with the lawyer Louis Columbo, after all the lawsuits. I mean she is closer to her lawsuit attorney than she is to her Pres. Cabinet, Staff members, and most certainly anyone outside of HQ. He's her bestie besides Donna. What is our friend Loius advising Rosie during this time? Of course I don't know due to lawyer/client confidentiality, but it is not rocket science to put things together. The Peeler lawsuit had just finished, with some allegations to do with the debt policy and forcing Peeler to sell his house and move closer to Corps "where the heat is " gaggggggg. So legal advice tells her that you cannot change the debt policy for fear of more and abundant lawsuits like the Peeler lawsuit. if the policy changes, then those affected by the old policy would have more grounds to sue. Isn't it so cool when legal advice aligns so perfectly with the new light you are seeing from scriptures? Rosie loves it when a plan comes together. Debt policy - here to stay folks. And you will never know why. Just more mushroom teachings. If this isn't evidence the Way is an old wineskin I don't know what is. In the midst of all this new light, R1c0's teachings spark a response from a few isolated Corps members on the debt topic. Other perspectives are shared than the new light. As Rosie's manner is, these names make her black list for later. Then, when any opportunity arises - complaints, anything - purge purge purge. She puts these members on probation and limits their ability to share their perspective by shunning. Rosie is becoming even better and better at eliminating murmuring. Her skill here is becoming unparalleled in the world, except for maybe Kim Jong Un in North Korea. A BOD member gets caught up in the alternate research. H@rv3 Pl@tig. He sees some points in the research, tries to reason with Rosie about it. Her response? H@rv3 is sh1tc@nned, sent away, and now has a job in collections. I guess that will serve him right for murmuring about debt. I guess kissing @$$ isn't so great of a strategy there. Rosie replaces H@rve with a VP who although they had litlte field experience worked in Trunk Office - Chocolicious himself - J0hn R@pp. Although he is still a Loy boy - ordained by Craig, he can be controlled. R@pp goes through a decade developing a split personality. One personality on any topic before bringing it to the BOD, and a completely different one after.

So, after a period of time, Corps overworked like always to make leadersh1t happy. Rosie decides it is in the best long-term interest for the Way to remake the WAP class. I mean what other decision could she make in a ministry whose core tenet is plagiarism? It's not like a zebra can change its stripes or anything. Make a new class with a different name? Why, when you can just plagiarize Forehead and W@yne's work, and assign other tools to do the teaching? Besides, we have all these splinter groups that are covering making new classes. In their minds, they are reaching out in a new direction, studying for themselves, teaching new things, forging in new directions in Christianity. They would do better to throw out all Way stuff and completely start over, go back to school, maybe do a "church plant" like they are training divinity students nowadays. Start one up with someone who has no Way experience at all. That way after 20 years, it would look more like a church and less like a splinter cult. But they don't. They continue to glorify VP's name, whitewash his life story, and continue his pattern of plagiarism. The Bible says they teach for filthy lucre's sake - KJV English meaning their motivation is money - to make a living, and increase their power. Anyway, Rosie selects 3 of her main tools to teach the class and there is actually permitted a little bit of personality in the class. Selected are J0hn "Chocolicious" R@pp, St3ve3 "Failed Physics Experiment" L0ngl3y, and D@vid Ch@voustie. They add in reviews by a staff member B3th C0yle which I swear look like audition footage for "The Stepford Wives". Weird inauthentic expression, kind of looks a little off like Anamatronics. Here they can replace those oh so pesky Class coordinator comments which could range out of control with much more vanilla comments. This class pretty much covers the same material as Da Forehead, minus some of the homo rants and de-emphasizing that overall framing of the class ending in Romans 1. Rosie makes a brief appearance looking all regal and pope like. Our good friend John Juedes wrote up a page about this class - http://empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_newWap.htm. The timeline here is 2006. What happens after this? Of course - same pattern. Now all Way members must be put through the new class. The one they heard Da Forehead teach. The one they have heard Corps teach live. Now the third iteration through the same basic material. Oh, and since years have passed, some of those cult members have kids that are turning 12. Presto, instant class. Now with numbers and the Way, they have always had some kind of minimum requirements for how many new students for a class. 7 has been like the magic number forever, but in the 80's they had film classes with 25 new students, and boring audio for the smaller ones. When the WAP class is first released throughout each of the 3 cycles, "new students" in the class are those who have taken the old class but not the new class. This way the pattern for these class rollouts is - Limb coordinators run the class for the Corps, Corps run the class for the grads, then runs for new students, and trains up class coordinators, then they run the class. At least in theory. it never gets past the Corps level of running them, because outreach isn't exploding for some reason, and it never will again.

Live WAP classes - so now everybody is freaking out on the field - teaching - "ohhhhmmmmmmmmmmm - The Foundational Class" is such a huge task for the Corps. How do we handle a huge task? By micromanagement of course. Who is the most prolific micromanager? Why Rosie of course. The Corps after the first round goes through attempting this resulting in people turning in 100 hour week schedules from trying to study, balance the huge paper load, and teach the WAP class, is instructed to "spend 1 hour in preparation for 1 hour of teaching" the WAP class. Corps teaches the WAP class basically from the syllabus - we had already amassed a great storage collection of props to make it look more official. The classes went basically according to people's teaching abilities, which widely varied. I would say that maybe half of them were better than the video, not meaning as good a speaker or anything, but just the fact people are teaching a small live group they can sense and cater to needs, emphasize certain things if they had those abilities. Besides none of these field leaders could rage against homosexuality quite like Max Forehead. If I had to categorize the approach people took teaching the WAP class Cover syllabus verbatim Read the scriptures on the syllabus and tell stories The #1 approach produced the same kind of vanilla standard boring teachings as you see on the STS services and Way mags. All life and personality squeezed out of them, formula BS articles and teachings, etc. The #2 approach was exiting for people and they liked it and all, probably more authenticity in the classes, but because the personality wasn't squeezed out, people such as the HQ eunechs would attend a class and report back to Rosie that they were different. Rosie tries to mandate to all the Corps the #1 approach, and succeeds marginally. There may be some mnimal purging of people not listening to this, but not a ton as these people were the only contact source of revenue for the Way to the people.

Obviously, keeping the WAP class around was problematic. People would ask questions about Exile Boy. So what is a cult to do? The problem was solved by having the Way Corps teach the WAP class live, and they would work on getting a new class down on video. This time the new class would be taught by multiple people, not just one, so they would never face the same problem again if a teacher leaves. Live WAP classes. By this time Rosie has brought in her boy J0hn Yv3s de L1sle from International Outreach to replace J0hn R3yn-lds for the BOT transition at Secretary Treasurer. R3ynolds had replaced cowterd when he was forced into retirement, and was Loytoy's boy, ordained with the salt of Loytoy's tears at a Rock of Ages (gag me with drama). So Rosie couldn't trust him. What does she do? She demotes him from Board of Trustee member to the Shipping Department coordinator or Purchasing or something. This is the first time in the ministry for 2 things. 1) Board of Trustees ISN'T a lifetime position - they forced dingdong and c0wterd into retirement I think at 65. 2) Now even the BOT positions are temporary and controlled by Rosie. #2 is puzzling as we had always been told that BOT had tie-breaking voting rights. I guess after Loytoy became Exile Boy, there was a period of time where Rosie could not only ascend to the throne, but break this tiebreaker. How does she do this? JY de Loser. So what does this tell you about the man who will become the 4th President of TWI? Absolutely - he was trusted above R@pp from the beginning to be her boy, to vote with her 100%, to think like her, and be trained up in the way of the Pharisee. NOTE: "The Way of the Pharisee", like "The Way of the Jedi", is kind of like the dark side of the force, since Star Wars Rogue One is out in theaters during the Christmas season of 2016 when I'm writing this. I read in one of the background threads that Rosie has a particular multitasking ability to smile in your face all while cutting off your balls and stabbing you in the back at the same time. This would be one of those Jedi mind tricks she has trained up her young disciple in. Other Jedi courses in "The Way of the Pharisee"? How to disconnect and act aloof The art of plotting behind closed doors Effective ways to lie Eunechs as effective servants - how to cull them, cut them, and promote them Backstabbing 101 How to fake smile Micromanagement 101 through 452 Purging 101 through 452 (included are studies in Communist purging from German, Russian, and Chinese history) Machiavellian studies in leadership After establishing her quorum of votes at the BOT (later changed to BOD to conform to laws for Non-Profits), Rosie brings in H@rv3 Pl@tig as Vice President to replace herself. H@rv3's main quality for this position absolutely 100% was bootie smooching. He was the winner in the contest the field leadership had in who could send in the greeting with the most flowery adjectives. A trained musician and Levite from the old Br@nded Loser band, who better to play the pipes to sing the praises of the new President. And sing he did.

“Will you walk into my parlour?” said the Spider to the Fly After the demise of Max Forehead, the first year was pretty quiet overall. Instructions to staff when they asked questions were "go to the Word to seek your answers". No dramatic changes in policy, and Rosie was busy separating out the chief administrator and pope job from the chief administrator pope and head teacher job. Also, it takes a while to re-weave that huge web that just got destroyed bringing in the last large prey. I say pope, because that's kind of the leadership model she instituted. Instead of getting off her f@t @$$ and traveling out to the people, people traveled in to her on a journey to Mecca to kiss the pope's ring. Actually, not fair to the pope, who logs much more time visiting local Catholics. Can I say Max Forehead was a great deal better? Early on after the fog he put on weekends around the country that he traveled to and people regionally came in to. Later on he would only travel to Gunnison. You know, for the mogfodt harem and Cabin 12. So it's like comparing crababbles and sour blood red oranges. I mean strategic decisions reflected this also - every single event started being run at HQ. But after a year or so, people started asking questions about the classes. When are they going to run? Is Max Forehead going to be on them? Are we going to replace them again?

Background thread:

Cutting in a quote from DWBH on the Keep the Change thread - Rosalie's background: DWBH ;quote: TY OldSkool! Another excellent post. Insightful and informative. Having left in 1986, the details of what transpired at NK and the other "root locales", or in the various regions and limbs after then, are known to me only second-hand. So, firsthand, eyewitness reporting such as your's, documenting the years from 1986-2008 is very interesting to me. Donna Lombardi and I spent our 4th corpse interim year in NC. Our very first job, even before going to our assigned areas/jobs, was to run a PFAL Family Camp at Billy Graham's Retreat Center, Christ Mount in Black Mountain, NC. We went there immediately after the ROA in August, 1974. The camp was a film class run in a week as a family camp. David Turk, recent 3rd corpse grad and newly assigned LC, was the class coordinator. I was his assistant. The other 4th corpses, Joel Burke, Charlene Little, Donna Lombardi, and Lori Dubofsky were also on the class team and Pilot Council. Rosalie Fox Rivenbark was a new student in that class. Each new student had a grad "sponsor" who was their official best buddy and undershepherder. Rosalie was a High School English teacher in New Bern, NC. Her sponsor was Miller Harrison, an educator also from New Bern, whose eldest son Stephen, and Stephen's best friend, Jeff Mohn had actually witnessed to their teacher. Both Stephen and Jeff had left to go WOW, and both went into the 6th corpse, graduated, and eventually went on to be Limb and region coordinators. Donna Lombardi had been assigned as the Limb Secretary under David Turk. She would be living at the ECU Way Home which was the Limb HQ for NC. She became attached to Rosie the new student from day one. They were tied at the hip from that camp forward until thus very day. Rosalie not only KNOWS everything about dictor paul's "lay to play" program for his female leadership, she actively and heartily participated. She went into the 2nd FC in August, 1975, exactly one year after she first took piffle. Within a month she had successfully slept and/or fooled around with not only DP himself, but also 2 different 4th corpse guys, one married, the other not, that I know of, because they came to me to brag (one) and repent (the other). As the year progressed Rosie filled the sack of several high-powered TWIt leaders as well as several future Limb and region coordinators. Oh, and then there was da forehead and his fiancée, Donna, Rosie's BFF in 74 already. Once Rosie Fox made it to Crotchaven, she never left. She never ran a class, a twig, a branch, or anything on the field. She took PIFFLE and a year later she moved to NK, Ohio where she's been ever since. Never had another job since leaving NC outside the sugar walls of Zion. Abandoned one son in NC, who never took the class more than once if at all, and she watched quietly and happily while the 14 year old she dragged with her to the FC became a repeat felon who eventually went to prison for attempted murder. Momma Fox disowned him. Jim Shumate was his name. So, for Rosie to say to the lawyers and judges that she knew nothing of any non-consensual serial sexual battery ring that existed at the BOT level, or of any involvement ever by DPW, Howard, or Donnie during the 1999-2000 discovery phase of the Allen case, was blatant perjury. She did it again in the Kaufman case. She's done it a thousand times since, and I don't even know all the crap that transpired during the 90s! Rosie's been a pimp and a whore and a liar since 1975, that I KNOW OF. And, I only know what dirty deeds she was involved in until 1986! So whatever Rosie and Donna have on Yves de liar is surely enough to keep him under their thumbnails until they die or he leaves. Never having met the man, I know already that if the girls picked him then he's a pimp and a whore and a liar as well. TY again OkdSkool for posting your insight and info. It does make a difference! Even to an old cop-out line me!.................peace.

DWBH, I'm citing you as either the origin of the above statement, a bad influence, or both. This timeline covers the administration of 3rd President of The Way International - Rosalie Fox Shumate Rivenbark - search engines be d@mned for some of these public figures. Also, I figured doing these timeline buckets in this fashion of "administrations" would be extra appealing to fundamentalist Bullinger dispensationalist fans.

Beware the knight on a white horse that has covered up zebra stripes? :)

One reason I also have for wanting to continue the timelines to extend them to the present is that the Way is continually hiding their past, whitewashing it, and saying they are a different ministry now. Here's where I can quote half of a proverb verse. It doesn't even have to contain any spiritual truth, just a common sense rhetorical question. "Can a zebra change his stripes?"

We are starting to run up against the end of the last story bucket, and things are overlapping into the year 2000. I thought I'd jump in and start the bucket, if that's OK with WordWolf. Year 2000: Y2K Martindale Ousted Rivenbark Installed Thanks everybody for all the stories. Woven together like a tapestry, they form a pretty compelling picture about what the Way is actually like, as opposed to what they advertise they are like. I think this helps in two respects: 1) individual recovery from past 2) warning for the future.

As I'm sure most have surmised, I was a young mushroom during this timeframe. Sitting silently in the dark and being fed, well, you know.

TWI and the "Research Department". Penworks covers the early time period in "Undertow", If you want detailed perspectives on TWI and research, I think that "Undertow" for example is a better resource for TWI history on the research department than other historical TWI tomes - like for example Mrs. W's mostly picture book "Born Again to Serve", or the one they don't publish any more, El3na Wh1teside's "The Way Living in Love" with tales of snow and gas pumps.. What I remember about the research department is an anecdote told by K31th J@cks0n, the guy who was the Way mag editor for all of those years. He was working on an edition and called Da Forehead up to talk about GMIR. Forehead goes zero to screaming in a microsecond. "Don't ever bring up the word GMIR to me again". "It's just an ego trip". Click. Later he shares just how persecuted he was during da fog years, and how he just can't handle thinking about GMIR. Apparently it just had too much ego in it. Funny how struggling over getting more insight on a scripture interpretation was so laced with ego, starkly contrasted with prancing around in a pair of tights, which had absolutely no ego in it at all. Forehead boy needs to make the "Research Department" his own. I believe his initial approach was to fire anyone smarter than him, or had any inkling of giving him any kind of argument on scripture interpretation. Thus, that amounts to exactly everybody in the department, except for Bern!ta. What is replacing them during this entire time. Good buddy W@yn3. He answers all C's letters, works hand in hand with him on the book, and the new classes. And the greatest benefit is he didn't want recognition, like his name as a co-author on books or classes or anything. He is a one-man Research Department. Without the title. Without a job description. And doing it while being a Corps coordinator at Indiana for the Family Corps. To bookend the "Research Department" the year 2000, how did all this pay off for W@yne? After Martindale is forced out by Rosie, her next step is to get rid of W@yne. She pulls some strings behind the scenes (as is her MO), and all of the sudden W@yne is bum rushed out, fired. Why? Apparently at HQ all staff has to participate in a rotation of doing "children's services" or a baby-sitting Co-op type of thing. W@yne being a bit absent-minded from his 2 jobs, misses a connection with a parent and a little kid sits outside his trailer unattended for a while. Parents raise a bit of a stink, and presto, the Fox has her ammo to purge. After getting fired, W@yne teams up with J0hn Shr0yer, they cruise down the road a bit in the Midwest, and form the offshoot splinter CFFM. This splinter was a little better than the rest, IMO, in that there were no "dueling revelations", Momentus adaptions, EST, or animatronics teaching tapes. They do still exist today - basically J0hn Shr0yer's daugther Tonia, talked W@yne into believing that her dad promised her he would leave her the ministry as somewhat of an inheritance type of concept, so she took over as President. How do you leave a ministry as an inheritance? K3v1n Guig0u and VP's youngest daughter Sara his wife work there too. They seem to have gravitated more to a small church type of concept, with "Pastors" and "Associate Pastors" like the mainstream Christianity terms. However they still have this organizational structure kind of like the Way Tree - with Zone Leaders, and State Contacts and the ilk. The main problem with them is the main problem with all splinter groups - Paul's words "the church is built on no other foundation except Jesus Christ". There is still so much foundation in splinters built upon a cult, and not Christ. From splinter groups' perspective, they took all the good things out of the Way, and removed all the bad things. Except for that's impossible. And the old wineskin just continues to dangle around the neck being carried around, water leaking through it like a sieve. And the longer time passes the more the tree that emerged from planting all those splinter group seeds is going to turn up as a variation of a crababble tree.

V & D Quote " The prevailing Word in the household and to the world is each Region, Limb, and Branch implementing a clear vision and action plan set by the Board of Trustees that will make the Word of God and a clean household available where we have established household fellowships. The direction is to provide a framework of accountability for all the Corps so there can be a godly proportion, a just, spiritual equilibrium of work for them in each Limb. All will have solid standards and goals to work toward, resulting in more productivity in their work and growth in the household. " The first paragraph above. "implementing a clear vision and action plan set by the BOT that will make the Word of God and a clean household available where we have established household fellowships" WTF exactly does this mean? This is completely self-contained circular language in which if you start to think about practically how this is happening, the "vision and action plan" we heard from the Twustees was we were hunting wabbits. Gay wabbits. What clear vision and action plan is this? Oh, we are going to run fellowships a few times a week like we've always done since forever. And we aren't looking to run new fellowships, just running them where they already are. And these fellowships will be really, really, really clean. No gay wabbit stains. This godly proportion, the just, spiritual equilibrium of work? This language was from the Region guys, who were drowning under their 4 inch 3 ring binders of fax memos who were looking at some possible way to make the sh1t flow downwards. Standards and goals to work towards - the mandates 20% sales target. Framework of accountability are code words meaning proposed and actual personal schedules, proposed and actual calendars, teaching topics, outreach events, etc. etc. As time progresses along with more and more purges - it becomes more and more unlikely to run across people in the general populace who would fit the criteria of those who would be likely to be interested. The other main purge playing into this was the start of the debt purge. The debt purge happened as Max Forehead was carrying out the heavy revy to put the Corps fulltime on staff. Of course we couldn't have the tithe paying for Corps debt this was evil evil evil. After many were dropped, then it became a requirement for leadership positions. To go into the Corps, no debt. To go Way Disciple (WOW replacement) - no debt. On Staff - you get it - no debt. And the big one - take the Advanced Class? No debt.

w/r to PC - political correctness, I personally just feel that more understanding and leeway needs to be given in the areas of identity and attraction. Scientific evidence has shown developmentally that this shows up as early as 6 to 10 years old. And this is shown to be independent of the views and orientation of the parents. That speaks more loudly to me than ignorance with a vein popping out their neck. This leaves the WAP class "research". To me any kind of a New Testament Grace based God is not congruent with a Father that would inflict a cruel trick on someone by creating them with genetic conflicts in identity and attraction to struggle with that places them on a tightrope of teetering over a precipice of being worthy of being executed. Don't know why the Levitical laws would be as such, but there is a lot of wacky stuff in that book with respect to laws. Those are my views, and whether or not they are PC I have not given one iota of thought. I don't mean to derail sky's thread here - but it's happening I think because the Homo Purges were a big part of this time period. Coming to grips with this topic is probably a big deal. .

Yes, between the vicster and da forehead, these guys truly missed their calling. I mean they should have been the head of the Westboro Baptist church denomination, with all that hate. Rocky one of the things I struggle with talking about this period of time is all that hate against those who have a little different makeup with respect to identity and attraction. Whatever answers people think they are getting from scriptures on this topic, I guarantee you that God is not hate. Just the opposite, and the idea you are "loving" somebody by taking a stand and hating them for their own good is disingenuous at best and sheer hypocrisy at worst. From my perspective, if Cra1ey did return to his former lifestyle whatever that is (and I have no knowledge of what it is), found love and support and recovered from the insidious cult that is the Way, more power to him.