chockfull

The poster's questions are addressed in the links that were provided. It takes a bit of sifting through to find them but that's the nature of the beast. Yeah. Meaning like you have to sift out 50% of the argument on the other side with all of the facts and supporting logic.

OK as a major participator in that 86 page thread WW I am going to have to call you on some conclusions you are posting here: The modern "SIT" practice (that resembles free vocalization exactly) ALWAYS produces speech that is NOT understood as a language by any bystander- except as when vpw himself faked it and spoke Greek when claiming he was Speaking In Tongues (BY HIS OWN ADMISSION and as recorded in "The Way-Living in Love.") Actual attempts to identify SOME kind of language with modern SIT have-without exception- shown the results to be an amalgam of sounds resembling the speaker's primary language, but not being any kind of language and not possessing the structure OF a language. (Not just "not a known language", but also "not an unknown language",) Wow that is quite a conclusion jump here from the resources in that 86 page thread. VP's history is a given. Please cite sources for your opinion that without exception the results are shown to be an amalgamation of the speaker's primary language, but not being any kind of language and not possessing the structure of a language. The linguists that I read in that thread observed that the "canned SIT" recordings of someone saying they were SIT on an audio tape produced what they could distinguish as sentences and syllables, both important characteristics of language. Actually the results I read did NOT show strong correlation between the purported tongue and the speaker's primary language. IMO, you and Raf both in the course of that discussion gravitated towards rejecting this altogether. This also looks to be a major lynch pin for Raf's current atheism and rejection of previous faith. Which is fine - everyone is entitled to their own exploration and conclusions. From my perspective the end of that 86 page discussion I withdrew continuing strenuous arguments because there was a mutual agreement that nothing could be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt one way or another. Also, the discussion was leading into denigrating areas and practices that I felt to be a poor representation of my faith of Christianity. However many of these recent threads are resurrecting one side of that conversation - the one side that rejects SIT. I do not. I also do not admit, confess, or think that VPW in any way taught genuine SIT, and it wouldn't surprise me if he was faking it every time he did it and taught it. The fruit of his life bears out that he was a fraud in more than one way. I also think it is disingenuous to present one side of that argument to someone newer around here asking for advice.

Raf, I never commented on this thread initially, but since I participated in so much of some of this original discussion in the area of SIT, I just wanted to tell you I respect your conclusions and statements of belief or lack thereof even if they differ from my own. I appreciate your writings here and interacting with you, you have a logical mind and good expression. Many of us who joined a cult did so in pursuit of virtue. We mostly have all taken different paths since that time. My only hope for you and all of us is that whatever the path, seeing the dark won't cause us to give up on our pursuit of virtue, but rather to continue to grow as human beings in our capacity and compassion, wherever that may lead us.

"The Rev" #1 will serve with "the Rev" #2 and "the Rev" #3. paper mache Olde English titles for modern day irrelevant moral midgets.

TLC from my perception you spend a great deal more time defending your honor than you do on your original content posts. Like one paragraph sharing how you feel, and sometimes that can come off both vague and like you are judging others unlike you but I don't think that is your intent. Then someone feels criticized by what is at best a vague statement, and an argument ensues. Then you'll write 8 posts in defense of your vague honor. Can you spend a little more time developing your original concept, about how seeing the vastness of life helped you overcome the hurts of the past and made them seem small or something? I kind of thought that was where you were going prior to the dust-up. That path to recovery is fine as well, just don't be critical of those who feel telling their stories helps them recover and make sense of things. I feel that way. Actually I feel I need different things at different times to recover, and if someone wants to judge me that's their issue. I don't think you are a wierwille apologist and you've posted around here for longer than a drive-by.

skyrider, thanks for the thread. it definitely is investigating into a whole lot of detail the duality we live with in life. I always enjoy your writing.

Sorry you went through that penworks. I would venture to say your accuser probably has more issues with their own past than with you. I also feel that empathy for other humans is a moral trait we didn't exercise much in the Way. Its easier to be empathetic towards someone you perceive to be like you. It takes work to get to empathy towards those you perceive as different from you. Thankfully I married someone opposite to me in many ways. Therefore I get daily work at something I'm not good at naturally. I'm actually making some progress. Who knows where I might be in another 10 or 20 years. :)

If there were no GS then there would be one less resource for people to recover from the negative impact of the Way International. One of my relatives has a rare disease, OT - tremors. There are only a handful of people diagnosed with this disease across the world. She had great deliverance over the course of the last couple years when these folks got together and shared their stories, they even had a retreat. Hearing similar stories helped her to adjust to her disease, feel not alone, and since the two meetings she talks about them a great deal. Just seeing another human adjust to the condition and live a 'normal' life helped her so much. Like her, we who have experienced TWI also have a rare disease. I will be the first to admit I am damaged from it. The experiences there have affected aspects of my entire life into today. There aren't many people in public that can relate to me regarding this experience. it affects a lot in my life. I could ignore, that, suppress that, or admit it and heal and adjust. But admit it or not, my 'normal' life is a lot like my relative trying to adjust. To me the real heroes of The Way International experience are not the ones in lofty places, with condescending attitudes, being installed with pomp and ceremony into the highest offices of the organization that is growing less relevant every year. Not those who bury their heads in the sand, "thinking no evil" like the 3 monkey statue shows. Not those who use others to advance themselves. Not the enablers. No, the real heroes of The Way International are found on these pages. Those who tell the truth. Those who expose the lies, the control, the manipulation. Those who share real life drama about escape and adjustment. Those who say what everyone is thinking in the audience but are afraid to express to anyone - yes the STS sucks. Like every Way production. Boring, read teachings, whitewashed messages, all lies. The truth is what happens behind closed doors, where they are meeting out of fear. If you want to see a real hero from the Way experience, go look in the mirror. It's you. You survived. You told the truth. You, my friends on Greasespot, are the true heroes, not the moral midget being installed as President or any of his Pharisee buddies. Or any of the various hucksters selling versions of lies for their own profit. You are the true heroes. Even if you're damaged like me.

Thanks for an awesome online account skyrider. I've been on business travel just got to look at it. Best to your family and best wishes.

Hey Twinky, What I think on this is that the fellowship in the home is a mixed bag. There is the intimacy side of it which is appealing. However, in general, it taught people to cross personal boundaries. People usually keep their lives and their families protected in their own home. But with fellowship in the home, and the love-bombing culture, I think what it accomplished is systematically breaking down personal boundaries. The fruit or result of this is you would see people very willing to comment on and control others in areas where they had no business - it crossed personal boundaries. Finances, child care, careers, sex, nothing was maintained as taboo for boundary crossing in discussing or controlling in another. I think the "touch" thing is kind of personal. Some people like to be touched, others less so. I'm more of the "don't touch me" makeup. I think though more importantly that the crossing of boundaries is what was set up there. And the mental conditioning to accept the crossing of boundaries passively without fighting. This produces an environment that is groomed for predators. And the Way had many predators. Many of them stayed hidden. Some of the worst were exposed, like Victor Barnard. People use and manipulate each other in the Way for more than just sex though. The caste hierarchy certainly shows a good element of the same type of behavior David Miscavage shows in Scientology with the propensity for abuse. And many other types of abuse. Boundaries. If you are or have been in the Way for a long time you might want to check yours. You may find they have been murdered by a hit and run. The murdered boundaries in the sexual category are especially egregious. They have caused documented suicides.

I remember this period of time well. It sucked @$$. Sorry for the vulgarity folks, but that simply is the most distinct and easy way I could describe it. Working as 2 fulltime people, on 1 salary that didn't match current costs of living. With debt, firing, stigmatization, shunning teetering on one side of the scale, and a salary dreamed up by idiots living in the rural midwest where costs are a fraction of the coasts on the other side of the scale. And the only possible way to survive is accept food from kind-hearted souls against the bribery policy. Then on top of it Hefner there at the top implementing cost cutting measures. Why do the people always have to pay for the spiritual dumb@$$ mistakes of the elite? I mean it was his failed revelation getting everyone to quit their jobs in the first place. Why doesn't he pay for the mistake? Au contraire, Hef is smoking cigars, wearing velvet jackets, traveling to Bermuda on vacation sending all us peon Corps pictures to hang up on our refrigerator while we plan WTF we can do for free on staycation in the local area. S-u-c-k-e-d @-$-$

I must say, skyrider, the story of human drama is compelling beyond words, and the truth in life's twists are not something anyone could invent. Your account of your deprogramming, the life's choice you faced, the difficulties of truth, family, marriage, and your future hanging in the balance, those speak so very loudly as to the impact that a cult has on one's life, and how life's path isn't always easy and follows twists and turns you never expect. A different choice in life's direction at a critical time, and all the lives of your children would not be there. I have so much of that tangled up in my life too. Family over the course of one's life is so much more important than we realize at 20 years old. I have wonderful, beautiful, smart, strong, and talented children, all of whom would not exist if I never joined this cult. Their grandparents, along with us, can certainly appreciate the duality of life and choices in our history.

I think I found some news footage on that "road to Damascus" experience. http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Explosions-shake-Damascus-Syria-blames-Israel-312070

A bunch of liars playing the long con because they themselves are trapped. I don't fear them any longer. The mental bonds of their false authority only has effect by acknowledging they have any spiritual authority whatsoever. My feelings are the God I know would laugh in their face at their condescending authoritative posturing and gets sick to His stomach at them biting and devouring one another to gain political power and them feeding themselves making themselves fat on the calamity of others.

Welcome higherground30 - your story is awesome. It highlights so much of the human struggle all of us have gone through similarly getting out of the Way!!!! NZ and Mij@l - met the guy a few times, outside the context of his little fiefdom. Perfect epitome of The Way - whitewashed, normal looking on the outside, and sycophant Pharisee swinger on the inside. One interesting twist there - in NZ unlike the US Trunk, the money all stayed in country. Instead of a budget of 75% to HQ and 25% remain in area, 100% of all of those finances were controlled by the head sycophant Ad@ms. So getting rid of all the non-ABS'ing people - that's a little different twist, but totally self-serving. The "tithe purge". It's hard to be a poor pastor surviving off a small congregation - need to get more mileage and moolah out of these folks. So sorry for your fractured family ties at the moment, but am happy for your freedom. Freedom is one thing that's totally worth the purchase price.

One more update on this - I watched episodes 5 and 6 last night of Leah Remini's expose on Scientology. They covered two interviews from former Sea Org members. One had set the standard in "Auditing" - in Scientology there are required ongoing interviews paid for by the attendee meant for people to advance to new levels of "enlightenment". The Way doesn't have "audit sessions" with a makeshift lie detector device like Scientology. What the Way has is called "grilling sessions". At least practically. They don't have any formal training for this, but it is something that all Corps are trained up in by example. You go through "grilling sessions", which are pretty similar to what I saw on the audit sessions with a leader trying to get you to confess to some imaginary crime, questioning commitment, etc.. If that's the standard of behavior that is normal you have to go through, then you unconsciously imitate it when handling life with those in the organization underneath your leadership influence. There is an account of a "grilling session" on this thread - outandabout on one of his New Year's Eve posts details a "grilling session" by Lally0. This type of thing is so very common in the Way.

Wow - after listing out all those bullet points, I just had an epiphany - where the outreach of the Way is going / has gone / is becoming. I had always wondered why so few of what I would term "quality" people would become interested in the ministry and stick around. The "quality" people were those who would normally be considered by society as stalwarts in a community - stable, financially secure, good home and family life. We always seemed to be reaching those basically one step away from homelessness. I'm sure the BODummies have extended meeting discussions about this exact thing. And that they are still clueless on this. "Quality people" were driven away by common sense. Because they already had financial stability, good families, and support systems around them, this all-encompassing love-bombed cult experience didn't have the same appeal. No, that was left to those life's story had treated a bit more harshly. Those who needed daily attention. Those who needed assistance in making basic life decisions. Those who really wanted a leader to tell them specifically what to do every day. Most financially secure have a mortgage on a home/property to incur long-term advantage with equity. They aren't inclined to sell their houses and give $$$ away Many times running classes became an exercise in managing calamity in the lives of students with this type of background and mindset. "Is this all bad?" is the question that lingers. Of course genuine Christian service is to help the less fortunate. But if you look overall picture at the Way, or at an organization called "Narcanon" which is run by Scientology, there is an overall funnel they direct people into, with steps every way to lose more and more of your own identity. Take this class, censor reading, take the next 2 classes, serve on crew, go to HQ for Advanced Class, do the outreach program, go in leadership program, give away your life. The amount of micromanagement and control introduced will ensure that very few if any well-balanced, free-thinking individuals will stay in the organization for an extended period of time. People become a means to the end of power for these cults and leaders. The bond held by the controlled mind is a bond of fear. It must constantly be reinforced, checked, micromanaged. Bonds made by the uncontrolled mind are free to be bonds of love.

Comparison and contrast are always such personal things. There are similarities and differences between the Way and Scientology. The main difference I see is the method. What is believed, taught. The means I see are remarkably similar, the ways to control people. The means are what we never discussed in the Way. It was always implied behind-the-scenes tactics. This actually is a great first place to start to detect cult behavior, where a good deal of the expectations placed upon the individual are unwritten ones. Similar people control methods that I can see .... Intense involvements in classes Strict policy in classes - high involvement, many hours, time, money invested 2.5 hours a day being a "good Scientologist" or "good follower" Daily schedule Early prayer and study - "lift lists" - all leadership and the ministry Study - Put aside all other reading material - study classes and collaterals Witnessing - 2x2 accosting people in malls late night, door to door like the JW's, outreach "events" to put together classes in a weekend Meetings - 3x per week minimum as opposed to 1x or 2x for church minimum. Classes - always something to run people through. These are the artifacts of the organization Crews - "service" is always emphasized, and especially "Adv. Class Grads" - whatever free time you did have should be volunteering Programs - "spiritual elite" - eventually over time, many / all will be talked into this Behavior is modified and controlled through doctrine Caste system formed by class and program attendance (Grad., Int. Grad, Adv. Class Grad, WOW vet, Corps) Friendships formed at the same caste level - leads to life decisions Corps marry Corps, AC grads similar, etc. Hate for technology/internet - censorship of reading material HQ technology 20 years behind Only advancement is into Search Engine Technology - to hide criticism of group Members encouraged to "stay off internet" Sea Org / Way Corps Forced abortions or leave the org Marriage and Family of less importance Rules against marriage related to caste system Rules against pregnancy Rules against pets Unwritten rules showing true commitment No coaching kids sports and missing the STS Extreme dissent detecting tactics Political "assassinations" of rivals Abusive behavior by top leadership Screaming/cursing Demotions and punishment assignments Probation as a punishment threat/tool Shunning Hyper-intensified paranoia of top leader singling out any imagined slight or resistance All standing in org is totally framed by this paranoia People's lives are ruined for the slightest little thing Borderline poverty level salaries for Staff "Management" salaries for Pres. Cabinet - $80-90k - rural town - many buy houses in New Knoxville or surrounding areas paying cash Ultimate golden handcuffs - org success, financial stability College options for kids - Bowling Green University - can attend on Pell grants for free because of poverty level parents salary Kids avoid debt and running afoul of policy Wow, and I thought there would be a few bullet points at max.

skyrider, I can totally relate to the personal toll it takes to surface some of these stories. Sleepless nights, dreams in turmoil, digging back in to some of the abuse I had pushed to the corners of my mind. Then I also go through a wave of guilt over why I didn't see it sooner, because if I did maybe I could have started rebuilding sooner. Guilt over being a supporter of these sycophants for many years. Guilt over how much of my life's wages income I've sent to these Pharisees, the hours I slaved away furthering their cause, listening to their every extended stupid rule and regulation, and with each compliant decision I was giving away more and more of my soul. I was a mid-level manager for an organization whose function was to steal people's souls and lives and use them up to further sycophantic whims totally different that what they portray in public. When I get over the illogical emotion, I know it wasn't my fault. The emotional toll however, is one easy way to see the fruit of the organization. People don't go through this selecting a different church to go to in town from the one they were experiencing. It's not easy, that's for sure. What is the alternative though? Keeping the deluded mindset of how fantastic of an apostle, pastor, evangelist, pastor or teacher I was, the overall importance of the positions I held, and all the fake friends I amassed?

It was so interesting seeing the episode with Miscavage's father. How he was in the Sea Org, which has parallels to Corps. Watching his ex-wife and all of his sons testifying to Anderson Cooper in unison about his evils, then knowing that his taking a stand and whistleblowing on his own son resulted in him having no communication with his family to the point of not even knowing grandchildren are born. It was also interesting about the little gift that left to his demise. Miscavage gave his father a Kindle that didn't have the whispernet turned off. So his father could browse the internet, and he did. He was looking for all the accolades for scientology, because they had helped the world so much. He was shocked when he saw people's true testimonies, which led to him awakening, then leaving later. It was interesting how brainwashed he was and a good part of that was censorship. They cut off all information coming to them from the outside world, and simply lived on whatever was fed to them internally. After years and years of a constant borrage of framing a perspective, it becomes a norm.

Was there also a book on or by Ermal Owens? I remember one of the last coherent thoughts I had while still in the Way was I wanted to do a research paper on the topic of debt using some of the history book material in the ministry. Looking at the practical side of things, how VP and Harry and Ermal mortgaged the Way out numerous times in the development of it to fund future growth. It would have made a great contrast to current debt policies. You know, because there isn't enough already out there to awake people from their hypocritical delusions of lording over others.

Happy New Year All!!!!! One other anecdote I wanted to share regarding Rosie and quotes she shared in private that are very revealing. Someone in a very small group of people - like 3 or 4, brought up the conversation of outreach goals of the Way. Rosie shared her disdain for the trunk of the USA and shared how one of her personal goals was to get HQ to the point where it was self-sufficient and not dependent upon revenue from US believers. This is why when you investigate the last public financial statements from the Way, you see that there is a substantial amount of revenue income from investments. The last figure I saw was $180k of income from interest. This aligns with an attitude based upon lack of investment. For a ministry that is so centered around Paul, they are clueless to his practicals. He went on 3 subsequent iteneraries across the known world. He did not sit in Jerusalem, build his political capital, and think through new ways to financially benefit.

The funny thing is we look at that series on Scientology as therapeutic, enlightening, and helping our recovery. Can you surmise what things they are saying about it in the behind-closed-doors Pharisee meetings? "Oh, it must be inspired by seed of the serpent, behind the scenes. Leah Remini is possessed, being used by the debbil. And the sole purpose is to spin up blame for the ministry. She is inspiring all those people on GreaseSpot to tell stories, and they are debbil possessed too." How can I tell that's what they are doing? Because I used to think like that too while under the influence and authority of a cult. it wasn't until breaking the chains of that false authority that I started to develop a perspective that wasn't spiritual dumb@$$, and stopped being an overtly compliant tool leaving my brain as a dumping ground for whatever the current closest sycophant wanted to put in it.

Thanks for the stories skyrider.