So_crates

So when VP died did they have a funeral? Bet they did. Bet it was as if a head of state died. Why didn't they let the dead bury the dead that time? SoCrates

Why? This is the major hypocrasy of the Ministry. What's your doesn't matter but what's ours nobody better mess with it. To those people who wrote about being forced to get rid of memorbilia of loved ones that passed on. Why is there a VP WOW auditorium. Haven't they moved on? When he died, how long did they morn? How much do they cleave onto the memory of the Ministry's founding fathers? Okay for them, but not for others. SoCrates

Houses on fire SIT? SoCrates Reminds me of my WOW branch leader: "Know what I mean, jellybean?" SoCrates

Jeez there are so many. "That's right!" "Fits like a hand in a glove" "Let go and let God" "Two-thirds of God is go" "Mark it in your bibles." SoCrates

When I was a WOW, back in '76, my family leader (home leader? family coordinator? The guy put in charge of the three of us.) said he had seen a woman question Doctor on something or other. Doctor threw a fit in front of the wholee group, calling this girl everything but a believer. He eventually calmed down, kissed her and said he was sorry. My coordinator finished the story with the rationalization: "He's the MOG and the MOG has to command respect. SoCrates

The other day I was watching Glenn Beck. He had a rabbi on (can't remember his name) to illuminate the meaning of the tower of Babel. I'll hit the highlites: The bible refers to Nimrod as a hunter. The rabbi asked why, in those days all men were hunters. Because, the rabbi said, Nimrod was a hunter of men. Before the tower Nimrod says let us make bricks. Why bricks? The rabbi explained whenever an alter was built to God it was built with stone. Why? Because stones are individual. Bricks are uniform--one brick is just like another. Then there's the mortar. In Hebrew the word for mortar is materialism. What holds all these uniform units together? Matrerialism. With this, Nimrod claimed he was going to build a tower to the heavens. These are the marks of any dictator: we're going to make you all alike and it'll be for some greater purpose to which we'll reach the heavens. Then the rabbi said its believed God punished them and gave them language. The only problem is the word for God is God of mercy. So, the rabbi explained, in his mercy, God returned them to their individuality. This become exspecially clear to me when I was reading one of J0hn L1nn's books. He said a person protested his assertions by telling him "You don't even know me." "I know you better than you do, I know the Christ in you." That was The Cults Brick=Chist in you. Materialism=The abundant life SoCrates

When I left The Cult, I spent many years running into various religious people and asking them where I went wrong. The unfortunate thing is most want to give pat answers and they're not used to running into someone who's as familiar with the bible as we are. When I was in Florida, I was in the library and ran into this person readingThe Purpose Driven Life We struck up a conversation and I told him some of my experiences with The Cult. He let loose on me in the library and continued the dressing down outside. I wouldn't have minded it, I mean I was raised in a family where yelling was the normal means of communication (God knows what we would have done to communicate a fire or some other emergency), but it was in public. So here I am with this raving lunatic that's supposed to be a Christian, calling me everything but a believer. This was about the time I started realizing it wasn't me, it was them. I mean, Thomas Jefferson said, questrion everything, even your belief in God, for surely God prefers sincere questioning over blind obedience (paraphrased) So much for seek and you'll find, knock and it'll be opened onto you. SoCrates

I can empathize. I feel they've messed me up as far as ever getting involve with another religion. AS I've put in another post: Why would God take someone who's sincerely seeking the truth and lay that pile of crap on them? We can write it off as freedom of will, but then, at least for me we're committing the same sin the Ministry did when they accused all the failures in your life to your believing. You did what you were supposed to do and landed on your face. Why? I mean, as outlined in PF4L. its true or its false. If it contnues to fail its obviously false. I read somewhere, the degree we feel depression is related to how much we're following reality. The way taught us to ignore reality (Damn the torpedos full steam ahead!!!) Then when we were sunk they refused to accept their veiw of reality failed. SoCrates

Is the Pope a Catholic? Does a bear potty in the woods? Does the Pope potty in the woods? Does a twelve pound bag of flour make a really big biscuit? Did the little piggy cry wee wee wee all the way home? SoCrates

WG: Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, I'm using it bas a dust rag. For me it was when I was a WOW in Michigan. I didn't go to the class becaus eI had a person I was witnessing to coming to the WAy Home. He left, I fell asleep. The next thing I knew I had the Michigan limb leader yelling at me for not being at the class. After ripping me a new one for about a half hour, he went his merry way. The next day, the branch leader suggested--and you know hoe they suggest--I should write the limb leader an apology. I politely told her to go jump. The guy wakes me out of a sound sleep and I'm supposed to write _him_ an apology. Sure, whe $100 bills fly out my-- SoCrates

It is is your in the Ministry: Snow is their business.

As I was leaving, (about the time of Athletes of the Spirit) the Ministry was publishing (at least in Indiana)a rag with supposed stories of signs, miracles, and wonders from around the country. Now I would write it off as propaganda, but idle curiousity is getting the better of me. Anybody know if they suspended publication? Are they still going strong? They probably have a whole staff of writers writing in the same _Weekly World News_ vein as _Bat Boy Adopts Baby Sasquach_ and _Erik Estrada: Space Aliens Gave Me My Teeth_.

Twinky, I can empathize. For years after I left the Ministry I was sure I had done something wrong. I searched and searched to figure it out. Finally, after reaching enough dead ends I realized it wasn't me, it was them. One of the religious people I know told me I didn't have enough faith. I raise dmy hackles and told him about all the sacrifices I'd made. "It's supposed to work, but it doesn't," I told him. "That means one of two things: I'm wrong or the docrine is wrong. Considering I've followed the doctrine to the letter, I can't be wrong, so it must be." Faith is one of those things that gets me. How do you know you have enough faith? "What you have faith about comes true," a believer would respond. For me that makes faith useless. How do I know when to put more gas in the car? When the engine stalls. When do I stp writing checks? When they bounce. How will I know there isn't e coli in the food? You won't die. How will I know when to take my heart pills? When your heart stops. Silly way to run a life. Though I can see some of the motivation, believing in faith makes you reactive rather than proactive. SoCrates

Obviously some definition of love I'm not familiar with. Same when I left. Nobody came checking on me. But the I had stopped ABS. They probably figured I was getting wise to the scam. The thing that really amazes me is I live in a college town. During the 70s and 80s there was Way folk droping out of every oak tree. Now like SoDamn Insane"s WMDs they've all disappeared. Evaporated. Went the happy bibical research ground on Weirwille Road. SoCrates

_Children of the Corn_, anybody? Uh-oh, sombody's being rotten to the corps

I would think his last teaching would be: April Fool! SoCrates

Oh and lest I forget, the bible is used as a rationalization for institutional panhandling. (Give and it will be given onto you preessed down shaken together and running over. Give and the windows of heaven will open and you won't be able to contain the blessing.) SoCrates

This is why I don't buy into the positive thinking bull permeating our culture. Have you ever notice the ones that sell this schtick are the most negative people you can find. Denial is more than a river in Egypt. In order to be positive, you have to create a shadow personality for the negative self. Everybody else sees and hears it. But that shadow personality can't penetrate the positve filter. I mean I always laugh at the people that tell me to be positive. Usually what they're really saying is be my patsy. Check out how much positive thinking really exists in this culture. Apply for a job, they're not looking at you and saying "S/he can handle it" they're looking for reasons to check you off the list. Approach a potential romantic partner, they're not saying, "S/he will make me happy." They're looking for reasons to reject you. Come up for a raise, they're not looking at all you positive qualities, they're looking for negative qualities so they can fudge on it as much as the can. SoCrates

Brainfixed: The last time a religious person laid that trip on me, here's what I told him: I have no idea what the bible origional was--its been added to, subtracted from, and had so much doctrine added to it over the years. Now, its an excuse for apathy (We don't have to do anything, its in Gods hands), manipulation (Have some faith, Its Gods will)and just plain slavery (God put me in this position, so obey). My big problem with any religion is that they interpret the bible, yet they claim they're the only ones that have the truth and thereby the path to eternal life. Now to me, God's given me quite a conundrum. The body of Christ has been craeved into 1500 sects. That means there's 1,499 tigers and one lady and somehow in this limited lifetime I'm supposed to figure it out. Seems the odds are stacked against me a bit. I mean it took me from the early 70s to the mid 80s to figure The WAy was a scam. And, as you can see from other post, a lot of residual beliefs still remain that need to be rooted out. SoCrates

Yes, but then there's the counter teaching: If you obey the MOG, God will bless you. So what do you do when the MOG orders you to act recklessly? Rhetorical question. SoCrates

I think your mistaking these people for alpha males. A true alph doesn't need to grab power, he has power. These are beta wannabes. SoCrates

For me there were also a couple of ah-ha moments: 1. After a year of abundance sharing I had lost my professional job and was back to doing menial labor. Upon going to the leadership to findout what was wrong, I was told to read Christians Should be Prosperous. Further discussions withthe leadership lead to an accusation of me not being a joyful giver. The conversation went like this: "Your not giving joyfully." "How would you know?" "I found a $20 bill wadded up in the back of the horn of plenty." "Are you sure that was me?" "Yah." "Your absolutely sure that was me?" "Yah, I'm positive." "Odd, I always pay with a check." 2. Just before the above, I had worked at a temp agency. When I got my last check from my professional job, I realized it wouldn't cover abundance sharing and food. God is supposed to be sure our needs are met when we abunantly share, right? Well, I wrote the check out for the abundance sharing expecting the check from the temp agency to arrive the next day. Next day, no check. I didn't eat for two days (it was the weekend) waiting for the temp agency office to open. When I got there, they told me they sent it to an address I lived at years before. I had to argue with them and threaten them with the division of hours and labor to get the money. 3. I asked the branch leader what I was doing wrong. He told me I needed a $20 an hour job. I asked him how you went about geting those and in what area was those available. He hemmed and hawed and told me he was sending me to the twig leader for that answer. I went to the twig leader, told him the branch leader sent me, and laid out the situation. His answer: "I don't know." 4. Years later, after the great falling away under Martindale, I was in a steep depression. I mean the Ministry"s advertising campaign was Wait Until You See The Great Life God Has For You, right? WEll, still ma lot of struggling a lot of unfullfilled wishes, certainly not a life I would say, Loook at what God has done for me. Upon asking where this abundant life we've heard so much about was, the man of God responded: "You got tricked." AS I said before, its a sick joke: chase this carrot, hitchhike 12 miles or walk an hour and a half to get to twig, obey the man of God without question, spend your life studying and witnessing, and then when the whole house of card comes tumbling to the floor, they deliver the perfect punchline: "You got tricked." SoCrates

Waterbuffulo: Truth huh? Not many years ago I read a short story in Again Dangerous Visions called Shall Dust Praise Thee? It was about when the day of wrath arrived. An angel came down from the heaven to pour out the first bowel when he noticed the earth was strangely void of people. After much discussion and dealing with heavenly beauracracy, God was called down. He sent to an instillation where a message was left for him. It said: We were here where were you? I'm sure this is one of the thoughts on the minds of many believes, something they noodle with in the back of there heads. Here we seeked the truth, we wanted that intimate relationship with God. What did we get instead? (As a Klingon put it once on Star Trek: an egotistical, tin plated swaggering dictator with delusions of Godhood. I of course left out pandering, money grubbing, womanizing alcoholic. Sometimes I can't help but wonder what kind of loving God would do that. Yah, truth. As Abrose Bierce said about history: An account--mostly false--of events--mostly unimportant--brought about by rulers--mostly knaves--and soldiers--mostly fools. SoCrates

Well, being 55 (I"ve been associated with Ministry doctrine since the early 70's, I last left the Ministry in '86) and looking over my "spiritual career"--taking PFAL and intermediate class and going WOW for a year-- Through everything I can honestly say the whole affair has been a very bad joke with a stupid punchline. Allow me to explain. From the get-go, the whole believing is recieving schtick is bull. I think just in the last few years I've proven that a couple hundred times. 1. A year before I was to leave Florida, I realized I needed a car. Somebody approached me with the proposition: help me sell my ship and I'll buy you a car. I must have gave him 20 leads. Needless to say no sale. No car. 2. My car broke down prior to the above. I asked a friend to look at it. He looked at it and said he need some other equipment. I told God to take care of it and let go and let God. Six months later, the car was beyond repair. In my building everybody got a car in one form or another, except the person who put his faith in God. Yours anonymous. 3. Before I left Florida, I wanted to say goodbye to the girl I'd lived with for 3 years. A friend of mine and I even prayed over it. I started looking for her a year and a half before I left. Two and a half years later, I still haven't heard from her. This after searching, and leaving word with everyone that would listen, leaving messages on the net, setting up ,a website on the net, posting in every social group on the net, and paying someone to locate her. Just a sidenote: the guy I paid was a scam artist. When I went to the religious guy in my building about the car. His first response to me was: "Money can't buy happiness." Then he turned around and bought himself a new car. His other basic excuse was: "Its not God's will." So, I told him, your telling me God doesn't want me to have a car? It was to reminiscent of the last time I severed ties with anyone in the Ministry. In my 40s, I was in a deep depression. I wanted to know where this great life God had planned for me was. Going to the person I knew in the Minisrty, I asked him. His response to me: "You got tricked." I got tricked. I obeyed the man of god by going to college. rather than getting blessed, as promiced, I have a $50,000 loan I owe the government and no idea how I'm going to pay it off. One of my friends in Florida told me I didn't have enough faith. I told him How much does it take? I moved a thousand miles from home hoping things would improve. Before that, while I was learning the ropes in my profession, I lived on potatoes for three years. That doesn't take faith. Of course, after I learned my profession I couldn't get back into it, so that was useless. Don't think this who believing is recieving thing is over yet. Read The Secretor anything in that vein. It teaches the same line of bull. SoCrate