So_crates

There was one person on this board who wrote an article about their time in the research department. They had commented that the research leaned more toward what Saint Vic said rather than true objective research. SoCrates

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If its anything, its the opposite. Practicing Way principles got us into this mess. Figure, how many people believed, despite what they were told about a coming real estate crash, that they would be able to flip their house and make a killing? How many believed, in spite of what their eyes told them, that the stock market was only making a correction and would go right back up? Believing, in spite of the evidence, is what fueled this economic mess. SoCrates

As per you first paragraph, BA, this is why I keep hitting on the point of victimizing the victimizer and having no concern for the victims. It's as if Johniam's value structure is upside down: Saint Vic (you can see his halo behind his horns) is the victim and all these women temped him, thereby victimizing him. And even if you could rationalize once (which Saint Vic and Johniam seemed to have done a bang up job of doing) how rationalize the next..and the next...and the next...and the next...ad nauseam. Did it just happen...and just happen...and just happen...and just happen? Again, Ecc. 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war; but one sinner destroyeth much good. SoCrates

Don't want people to realize the research ministry really didn't do any research. Most of the so-called research was either others work or something pulled out of Saint Vic's tail. SoCrates

This sounds like something you'd hear on the Jerry Springer Show: "We were making out and it just happened." I always wanted to yell back at the tv: "How did it just happen? He went to get a beer came back nude and fell on top of you while you were also nude?" I just happens is nothing more than a rationalization. SoCrates

What's the prayer? Lord, grant me the strength to endure my blessings. SoCrates

I cast my vote for lower than a pregnant whales stomach on the ocean floor. SoCrates

Yah, people got blessed so much that they abandoned TWI and they were so incredibly blessed they joined this board to discuss how many blessings Saint Vic bestowed on them. SoCrates

Finally, the world of Johniam makes sense. You see, John, you had some gains. Many of us incurred nothing but losses thanks to Saint Vic. Thanks to him and his doctrine we lost friends, family, jobs, opportunities, spouses, and our cash. Some of us even sacrificed our youth at the alter of Vic the Magnificant MOG. I think that's what you'll find at the core of most of the conflicts you have here. To many on this board, its like admiring Chairman Mao. Anita Dunn said he was one of her favorite philosophers. The White House had a Christmas ordiment with his likeness. But most of us are going, what? He slaughtered how many people? Same with Saint Vic. You feel a statue should be erected in public square in his honor. Most of us on this board are going, what? Look at all the human wreckage he left behind. All the lives he ruined. Ecclesiastes 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good. (An interesting sermon on the subject) SoCrates

To bad, they're believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I often wonder where we get this one-trick pony mindset: If a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right. Can you just see that board meeting? "Well, Craigmiester's Way went over like a pregnant woman on a pole vault, so what do we do now to boost these sagging returns? I know, we'll revitalize the Old Way--the Tree, LEAD, the Corps, WO-freaking-W. It'll be a peach, a peach I'm telling you." Wouldn't suprise me if they had a plan in the works to try and resurrect Saint Vic. Probably the highlight of the New ROA--New and Improved, Now With 20% More God. They just don't want to face the fact that ship has sailed. People have wised up to their little Ponzi scheme. And, of those that never heard of them, if they know how to use a keyboard, they can find out. SoCrates

The cynical side of me thinks Werewolf intentionally picked the most controversial aspects of Christianity so he could attract the rebellious youth. Did all his strutting, pontificating, and talking trash about other religons change the world? Sorry, no, but thanks for playing. The world is the same place its always been, always will be. More people have heard of Joel Olsten than have heard of The Way ("Are they the ones that make the bibles?). Contrary to popular belief, there are no statues being erected to Saint Vic. Life goes on. I think the biggest change has been in the individual. Hopefully, we've come to realize everybody who comes riding on a white horse and promising paradise means paradise for them. Hopefully, we've become aware we can't let anyone do our thinking for us, that's our responsibility. You can't memorize a book of rules and suddenly you have an answer for every situation. Life's just a tad more complex than that. Like most revolutions, it started with the best of intentions (on our part) and wound up with the worst of results. SoCrates

I bet Saint Vic spent more time with the honeys than with either the honey wagon people or John and his peers. SoCrates

As long as its not plagerism. Or one person's opinion being palmed off as heavy research. SoCrates

From post #73 of the "A prophet is a hard man to live with" thread: Do you see the apparent contradiction here, Johniam? If God was going to heal somebody, surely He would heal someone who loved The Word first and rightly divided His Word. So why didn't God heal Vp of his sexual sickness? Why didn't God heal him of his alcoholism? Most of all, why didn't he get ministered and healed for the ocular cancer and melanoma that eventually killed him? Couldn't be his believing, in theory he had the believing of Jesus Christ. He had enough believing to take on a ministry given to him by God. So, why didn't God heal him, after all as you say, your God doesn't refuse to heal. And what do you think Vp did when he couldn't get ministered to and healed of that ocular cancer and melanoma? You think he just said, "God its in your hands," and let it spread through his body. No. I'll lay odds he went to the doctor--that world wisdom he's so good at putting down--and got treated to extend his life as long as possible. So, before you condemn world wisdom, remember though Vp acted like he despised it, he used it when it was convenient for him. SoCrates

I was reading a book on biology and it mentioned cult leaders and their affinity for the ladies. According to the book, its a biological thing. It said being top dogs, it was their biological responsibility to spread as many of their genes around as they could. I'm not saying I agree with the position. Just a thought. SoCrates

Nice to see I hit a nerve. So, what's your experience with people who have been molested or raped? Here's mine: a neice, a fiancee, the 7-year-old daughter of an ex-girlfriend and some friends. I speak from experience. I've seen what rape and molestation does to people. I've delt with my fiancee's fears and my neice's nightmares. When you narrow it down to real flesh and blood human terms, you realize what true monsters people who rape and molest are. You don't think his victims are in prison? Vp's worm food, he doesn't have to get up in the morning and face what he did. Unfortunately, his victims have to deal with the consequences of his actions every day of their lives. You can tell me all you want about God healing, but I've seen it in others in a similar situation. Several years ago, I slashed my thumb open when a plate I was cleaning broke. It healed, however, I still have the scar, and due to nerve damage, there are parts of my thumb that have no feeling. Yes, God heals, but he also gives us scars to remind us not to be so stupid as to do that again. (Or, in this case, let it happen again.) Write it off as world wisdom. It absolves you of all responsibility to think the matter through. Then you don't have to consider the pain Vp caused. In typical Way Blame the victim style, you can say it was the victims fault because God healed them and they don't believe it. With this attitude you never have to look at the flesh and blood reality of what Vp did and you can still live in your La-la Land. Taking this attitude, you can make Vp sound like the victim and his victims sound like perpetrators. Your way, the morally superior my God doesn't refuse healing attitude, narrows to nothing more than another way of vicimizing the victimizer and not having concern for the true victims. SoCrates

This is apparently some definition of "love" and "rightly dividing" I'm not familiar with. Have you been reading some of the other threads? Vp did nothing, zip, nada, the bagel, to rightly divide the word. Most of his work (I am trying to be kind) was done by others which he palmed off as his. He however was good at seducing women, drinking, and getting people to worship Vp--which, if I were you, I'd be careful: your love of Vp hedges idoltry. Again, dude, I see someone who too concerned about how victimized the victimizer is and not concerned enough about the real victims. Need help guys. Paraphrasing here. Doesn't it say in the Bible "A little bit of evil undoes a lot of good" or something to that effect. You can tell me how righteous Vp is, but all his evil has undone all his good. Like I told you, by being unrepentant and unremorseful Vp forfieted his forgiveness on earth. By continuing in his ways, even though he knew they were evil, he forfieted any mercy. For most people that would be enough, but not Vp, he saw to it his evil spread in LCM. SoCrates

Johniam, this is an example of what I was speaking of. See post #224 of this thread. You should show some compassion for Werewolf's victims, rather then trying to retain the Werewolf legacy. Ham, keep plugging and chugging dude. It's not your fault somebody has Waybrain and just doesn't get it. SoCrates

That would also help to explain why he got the MOG mantle, he knew where to many of the ministries skeltons were buried. SoCrates

I see you found a picture of the shovel ready MOG. SoCrates

So, Johniam, in this whole discussion about moral superiority, don't you think we're missing the 500 pound gorilla in the room? Who in all of us thinks he's more moral superior than any of us? Who claimed he was a MOG and acted like God's laws didn't apply to him? Who took a ministry he was entrusted with by God and turned it into his own little swingers club? You want to talk moral superiority? You don't get much more moral superior than that. Seriously, if you peruse this sight you'll get a better picture of vp as a person who felt he was so much smarter than the average bear he didn't have to obey anybody's laws--God's or man's. Instead of focusing on how we should be building a statue to the shovel ready man of God, why don't you talk to some of his victims. Tell them how righteous a man he was. Explain to them their ruined lives were the price for moving the Word and how grateful we should be for vp and his moral superiority. Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life. Oh, feel free to ignore this post, it's safer. Talk about moral superiority: I have this belief and I'll ignore all evidence to the contrary because I believe its the right thing to do. Next time you pull the moral superiority card, maybe you should check the mirror. SoCrates

Vp..the devil--same difference. Wait a tick. Werewolf is more evil. SoCrates

Thanks. I'd always heard it was Einstein. I appreciate the factual attribution. SoCrates

That's Einstein"s definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. SoCrates