So_crates

Remember what I said about the length of the post being correlated with the attempt to con someone. In the physical realm, hence the claim that it's about material abundance. Yah, I'm sure your memory got all the details right. I mean considering your hero worship of Saint Vic and confirmation bias and all? And I need this word salad, why? And naturally your version is the only one that's right. No, Saint Vic chose a physical object because he meant a spiritual reality. Odds are the truth is that Saint Vic preached the prosperity gospel until people started questioning why it wasn't happening, the his excuse was, well, it's all spiritual don't you see?

So, if the ministry didn't hawk material abundance, what was the point of living "at need"? The point other than adding a few thousand a month to Saint Vic's coffers, that is. Or does giving equals recieving mean something else too?

I see you're still driving your Dodge. Like I said before, you don't minister to people by spinning the truth. Only the truth itself sets you (and them) free. The woman requested Saint Vic pray for a material need, an apartment. Then she requested a greed, red drapes (I seriously doubt she would have died if she didn't get red drapes.) Now, you don't need to have a PhD in logic to know that drapes are physical things and not spiritual, therefore God provided physical abundance. Please do look up your transcript and while your at it show me where in the class it says PLAF is only for spiritual abundance and do it without retconning or spinning.

Good job ministering! Just goes to show how full of squat you are.

So? Was it taught? Then it was an example of Saint Vic claiming PLAF bringing material abundance.

Minister to? Ministering to someone starts with admitting there was a problem. God said, The truth will set you free. Not a retcon of the truth, nor spinning the truth. The TRUTH will set you free. All your retconning and spinning Saint Vic and PLAF is doing is putting people in more bondage.

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. They believed the "Rich And Famous" interpretation of John 10:10 because that's where they were intentionally led. It starts with John 10:10 and the abundant life. Then you're lead to the pressed down, shaken together, and running over verse, then into Ephesians for the now onto him who is able to do more than we can think or ask verse, then wrap it up with Malach and promiises of how the widows of heaven will open and a blessing will be poured out that you won't be able to receive. And all you have to do is ABS. So Saint Vic and the ministry perpetrated the lie. Then why was Saint Vic selling prosperity? See above. Again , see the first response. That was not only taught iin my home state, but in my WOW state, so it was taught nationally which traces back to Saint Vic. And now you know where they got the idea. Yah, sure Saint Vic certainly lived by these standards. Says the guy who lived like an Old Testament king. And still wanted more. More money, more motorcycles, more woman. Bad example. Saint Vic should have followed his own advice.

So, you're admitting Saint Vic lied when he told us PLAF would bring us prosperity. Even worst, you're laughing at the people who believed the lie. Now, how do you expect us to believe anything else Saint Vic or PLAF claims as that would make us suckers all over again.

So the why weren't we allowed to "pay" for the class in the "abundance" as defined in the bible? And Saint Vic's idea of abundance wasn't car oads of money, as proven by his constant begging for money? ABS, love offerings, classes, etc. If weather was the point then why were we lead to the pressed down, shaken together, running over verse when ABS was requested? Or the windows of heaven verse in Malachi? Watch the rocks, Mike, that cathedral you're hiding in is made of glass. If you want to start talking about suckers, who paid a second time for a class they were promised they would only have to pay for once, then they could take it as many times as they want? Hint: Look in a mirror.

Besides @chockfull's insight I would ask what was being promised during those days of massive growth? I know of one wheelchair bound invalid that was promised he would walk again. So was PLAF, like snake oil, being marketed as a cure all? Want your cancer cured? Take PLAF. You don't need a heart transplant. Take PLAF. Want your spouse to come home? Take PLAF. I would also question the methods in marketing the class. Locally, it was stated that if someone wants to date you, use that to get them to take the class. Use whatever means necessary to get them to take the class, it was stated.

As if Saint Vic acted like a man of God.

Of course our job (It's one of those big jobs assigned by God you're always talking about) is to stir the waters. If we didn't the truth about Saint Vic's phoniness and sins would soon be forgotten. Isn't that why you're bothered by our constant stirring?

Actually, this is a quote, made by Mike, in T-Bone's post. Taking into consideration the above quote by Mike: In a previous post you said that it appeared the devil was winning. If both suddenly have access, then wouldn't there be an much good as evil? God's willingness equals God's ability, remember? Then the converse must also be true. God's ability equals God's willingness. In other words, if God is able to open the door and do good works, he is willing to.

Which would be a tragic error. When we stand before the bema, as the rabbi says, we aren't going to be asked, why weren't you Saint Vic? However, we could be asked why weren't you [your name]?

Isn't it amusing that Saint Vic used the budget excuse for lack of miracles, yet he wouldn't accept the budget excuse from believers for lack of ABS.

My understanding is that marriage is not as much spiritual as it is social, its major purpose being to keep property in families.

For me, this whole thread is textbook The Way International. They make outrageous claims: Wait until you see the life God has for you. Go WOW and you'll mature spiritually 10 years. God will meet all your needs Then, after they've been called on the carpet by people falling on their face believing those claims, the make up excuses: You didn't believe It wasn't God"s will Well, God has a budget and you're not on it.

You bring up an interesting point, Nate. In translations we know the word have been shifted from one language to another, using similar words chosen to be closest to the original according to the translator's ability. With Saint Vic, who spoke bibical Greek as well as he spoke Klngon, it was more a choice made around his vices. The law of believing made room for blaming the victim, it also provided cover for his impotence in the spiritual realm. Do anything with the love of God opened the doors for his sexual escapades, his boozing and his sealing others works. If you look at PLAF, you can see it's just one big license to do whatever he wanted.

You mean changes rightly dividing the word according to you, don't you?

So then why did Saint Vic teach it in the class? So he could give us another example of how he didn't have to obey his own rules? You're really grasping straws here. You know when you're changing the word of God. The why waste time teaching it? Another example of why PLAF:sucks: useless teachings. You mean are they changed according to Saint Vic's interpretation, don't you? An itepretation that allowed him to drown in his vices and never have to repent for his errors.

Weren't we taught in PLAF that that's how the serpent beguiled Eve? Add a word, subtract a word, change a word, turn the whole thing around.

But it's totally okay for you to think we have a less valid relationship with Jesus, right? It shows by your constant attempts to teach us something. It's also hidden in than condecending attitude you have toward us. Silly me, I thought the love of God wasn't puffed up. Now where did I get that idea?

Mike, don't try to bs me. For the last 40+ pages, you've had a debating stance and now that it looks like Saint Vic excuse for his own spiritual impotence will be deep sixed you hide behind, I'm just exploring. What your actually doing is spouting Saint Vic's bull hoping you'll slip a few clunkers past the goalie. If you were truly exploring, you would consider the criticisms presented and NOT label them invalid without providing a reason for why they were invalid. Further, all exploration should start with two questions: 1. How do we know Saint Vic was a man of God? 2. How do we know Saint Vic worked for God? If either of these results in a negative answer, then the whole theory is invalid.