So_crates

They can only teach you to be what they are. Think about it: they leeched our lives, our abilities, our cash flow. SoCrates

You gatta admit, its catchy Rock star from mars

Hmmmm...ask not what the ministry can do for you, but ask what you can do for the ministry? SoCrates

Us misrepresenting you is one explaination. You miscommunicating is another. The purpose of communication is its result. If your not getting the results you want change your communication. SoCrates

I was wondering the same basic things, Ham. Only my way of putting it: Why are you coming here to do your witnessing? Your preaching to the ???(whats the opposite of choir?). Do you think we're going to have an epithany and suddenly think: "Hey, that Saint Vic he was a real stand up guy. Sure, he stole our lives. Sure, he couldn't keep his pants on. But, hey, that's our Vic, yuck, yuck. Bygones are bygones, so what, huh?" Sorry, thanks to someone else, most of us here sampled the wares your offering. We're still trying to hard to get the bad taste out of our mouths from that time and have no interest in another sample. SoCrates

It's not about what they might do... Tell that to BOWTWI and her son. Tell that to anyone involved in the gay purge (it wasn't what they were, it was what they might do when the lights go out), tell that to anyone M&Aed because they didn't ABS (how would you know whether or not they'd ABS the next time?) Again, you don't condone it, so why are you silent? SoCrates

If my arguments had no substance, I'm sure you'd be pointing out the weaknesses and flaws. Just as you have in the ones you cherry picked. As it is, there are no weaknesses and flaws, so you have nothing to point out. Rather than parrotting the ministry's party line, why don't you think things through? (One example of you not thinking things through is post #74 of this thread--I noticed you skipped over that point) Also, rather than depending on the TWI for your info, think for yourself. That's what I've learned: to think for my self. That involves relying on my own sources of information and my own logic and reasoning to put the information into some kind of structure. Rather than accusing people of slander, look at what they're saying. Sky's blue, water's wet, and facts are facts. I'm sure your rationalizing brain tries to make my arguments without substance, but then, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. SoCrates

No, I said we have everything on loan. Remember the come into the world naked leave naked bit? The people who gave Saint Vic his alms were not giving alms to Saint Vic. They were giving them to move the word. Saint Vic pulled what was called misappropriation of funds, rather than using the money for Gods work, he used it for Satan's work. Rationalize (trying to make reality fit your feelings) all you want, there's no way around it. Nice speech about the ministry of reconciliation. Now explain to me how you reconcile people through debachery, seduction, rape and plagerism. Forked tongue, anyone? Good point, Waysider. If you can't tell the Internal Revenue "It's God's money", then why does the internal revenue grant churches tax-exempt status. SoCrates

On the contrary John, scripture does agree with me. Refresh my memory: how many times did Jesus warn people about the Pharisees? How many times did he confront the Pharisees and remind them who and what they were? Strange you would mention the Old Testement and forget the Gospels. Selective amnesia? SoCrates

Or Way-sted $$ SoCrates

Yeppers. Balls in your court, George SoCrates

I didn't know God worked for Internal Revenue. I didn't know God even recognized the Internal Revenue. Here's where your making your error on this: physically yes it is their money, but spiritually...ahh spiritually there's the rub. So you argue from physical plane and some one else argues from a spiritual plane you accuse them of being morally superior. The obvious answer is argue from a spiritual plane yourself. Example, spiritual plane: we on nothing in this world its all on loan, so the Internal Revenue can argue whatever they want, God gets the last word. SoCrates

So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument. Sorry, won't wash. Slander? You haven't been doing your homework. Most of what you call slander can be backed up by witnesses on this site. Truth is the defense for an accusation of slander. Also, if you truely believe God is a god of deliverence, what's your beef? I mean by informing people of what Saint Vic and the Craigmeister did, we're preventing them from going through the pain we did, and therefore delivering God's people (doing God's work) Saint Vic on the other hand put people into bondage (seducing, raping, manipulating)(doing the devil's work) So, your beef again is...? In Acts, God did warn Paul not to go to Rome: He did it first directly, then through sisters prophesying, then he had another man of God come and literally tie Paul up. Well, think of TWI as Rome, people listening to my message as Paul, and me--well, I guess I'm the person tying them up, ain't I? SoCrates

Anybody recognize any of the below names? They're posted on the Adam Hirschfeld site's registration page thus: SoCrates

If RR continues at the pace she's going, the next Sunday teaching could sound like Socrates

Just where did this: there own money business start? Its not the ministry's money, its ours which we donate. Ask anyone with a green card, you didn't pay for something, you donated it. Its a little syntaxic game the 501-cs play: The charge you for something, the fed can tax it. But if its donated, its free and clear money. Further, just what did we donate that money for? It wasn't to defray expenses involved in holding the class: volunteers moderated, usually in their home--so there was no rent or utilities overhead. The equipment was already bought. The class was already filmed. So what expenses were there to defray? What it comes down to is: We donated the money for a specific purpose: the furtherance of the Word. Not a motorcoach to have affairs in; not an airplane to get to other far away affairs in; and certainly not a motorcycle to attract those girls who want bikers so he could have affairs with them. You remind me of the government who went on endlessly the last quarter of 2010 about tax cuts. Who you giving a cut to? Its our money. Much like the government, what does the ministry really produce? SoCrates

Our father in the Word. One has to enjoy the irony of that phrase. Saint Vic loved it. Yet I would question wether or not it was a tool used for brainwashing. Look at the Saint Vic legacy. Is it very paternal toward the believers? At best, TWI could be described as a dysfunctional family with a dictator at the head. If Saint Vic was our father in the word, we were his children in the word. What father harms his children? What father abuses his children? What father lives in the lap of luxury while his children scrap and scrape to support him? What father lives on a steak buget while his children can only afford hamburger? Even the title shepard eludes Saint Vic. What shepard send his sheep in harms way? What shepard denies his sheep care? What shepard puts a wolf (Craigmeister) to guard the flock? Like I said, you have to enjoy the irony. SoCrates

So you don't like mark and avoid in a secular setting. Yet you condone this type of behavior when Craigmeister did it during one of his purges. You condone this type of behavior now that RR is doing it with the recent scandal in CO. You don't condone this type of behavior? Then why are you silent? SoCrates

Yes, it doesn't violate free will. But, it does take the focus off of God and put it on the person doing the marketing. TWI is a perfect example of this. Believers didn't worship God, they worshipped Saint Vic. Every word out of Saint Vic's mouth was golden, whether he was talking about molesting his daughter or making outragous claims like he created fast food. And the worshipping continues to this day. Rather than seeing Saint Vic for what he was, an evil egomaniac who raped and pillaged his way across the landscape, followers prefer to rationalize: Oh, he was only human. Make a mistake in the ministry and see how far that excuse gets you with any of the leadership. So he had a few affairs. So then what's a person who can't keep his pants zipped doing telling me how I should be living a pure life? The devil made him do it. What's a person controlled by the devil doing in charge of God's people. The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil. Blaming the victims, an old ministry ploy. Saying the people speaking the truth are possessed, another old ministry ploy. Even though the TWi claims it taught the Word like it did in the first century, it uses capitialist methods. Forked tongue, anyone? Even though the ministry says it does what's best, it fails to look at the examples set by the people who started Christianity. If charging for a class is best, why didn't Jesus Christ do it? Or Paul? Or Peter? Forked tongue, anyone? Not a violation of free will, but it leads to a violation of free will. Let's see first your force to pay for the class--a class stolen from someone else, I might add. Then your asked to produce 10% ABS. That asking becomes a nudge, then that nudge becomes a shove. That shove becomes: you do it or your not a part of this ministry. You see how it all cascades? Nobody is arguing money for overhead expenses: that's what ABS is for. The problem is when you get away from the bibical mandates of use what you need for overhead, then use it to help believers. And as long as we're on ABS, by God's standards, Saint Vic misappropriated ministry funds. You think Paul went out and bought himself a top of the line chariot with the ABS money? AS you recall, Jesus Christ mandated that the the apostles carry as little with them as possible. On the other hand, Saint Vic took the money we gave him to move the word and bought himself trinkets: a motorcoach; an airplane; a motorcycle; trips to the Indy 500 and God knows what else. Once again, you argue apples and oranges. A hospital is a building with lots of overhead. Holding the class, where's the overhead? The class was presented by volunteers, the building was paid for by the same volunteers, as were the utilities. The class was already taped, what bills were there? Running HQ? Well, again you get back to that's what ABS is for. SoCrates