So_crates

Another thing that lost me in PLAF was when Saint Vic explained humans being thrown out of the Garden of Eden and the transfer of ownership of earth to the devil. Saint Vic touted this transfer as logically logical and legally legal. I just don't understand how. How does committing original sin (whatever it was) transfer ownership of the Earth to Satan. And if you look, earth isn't Satan's only domain, the whole universe is. For a lack of a better word, I'll call it corruption, exists throught the universe. Mars shows signs of erosion. Jupiter was hit by a comet. Even the sun will eventually use all its fuel and burn out. Tied into that is: then is eating from the tree of life a physical act too? Eating from the tree of knowledge was whether it was eating an apple or going by either of the ministries two explanations, all were physical acts. SoCrates

Okay, I can see the concern the first century church tanked because people turned against the man of God. But did anybody bother to think: so if this trolley goes off the tracks, how are we supposed to be able to tell someone? Which of course brings me to: I don't run the trolley I don't ring the bell But let the d--n thing jump the tracks And see who catches h--l SoCrates

The first thing that would have crossed my mind was: why am I patroling these grounds? Is somebody's believing askew? SoCrates

Well, I don't know a whole lot about it myself, but this is what I've been able to piece together from a couple of sources: My ex twig leader, about '85 or '86, said there was a legal battle brewing that we needed to pray over. Seems the ministry's religious non-profit status with the Internal Revenue being questioned. That time I saw the branch leader, it would have been the late 80s to the early 90s, was the first I heard of how that legal battle panned out. From what I could gather from the ex-branch leader, the Internal Revenue used both Saint Vic and Craigmeister's affairs as leverage to get the ministries taxes paid. And as the ex-branch leader put it, these are his words, "it blew their minds so bad, they not only paid this years tax but last years." Maybe somebody else can verify this, as this is just what I heard. SoCrates

I understand what you mean. It was close to the same story for me. The last time I went to twig was in '85, '86. I continued spreading the Saint Vic doctrine on my own. After all, I had the truth. A few years alter, I ran into my old branch leader downtown. He told me he was no longer with the ministry. He said the Internal Revenue had cornered them about some goings on that blew executive minds in the ministry so bad, they not only paid the taxes for the current year, but the previous years also. That was the first I heard about Saint Vic's indiscresions. My first thought was what can I do to save the word. Odd, isn't it how we thought we had the truth so much, we had to save it. After awhile I figured that was God's department. If someone came to me with a problem in their personal life I still gave the pat ministry answer. I continued pontificating twi's version of the bible. It wasn't until a couple of years ago, after I read many posts on Waydale and GSC, that I realized the extent of the fool I was being. SoCrates

Evil wins when good men do nothing SoCrates

Another thing that's always bothered me about twi doctrine. Being born again gives you a free pass into heaven, no matter what you've done. So, theoretically, if Hitler or Stalin or Mao Tse-tung were born again on their deathbed, they would have gotten a free pass into heaven. So why not party hardy--eat, drink, and be merry--and save the being born again until the grim reaper is standing on your porch. SoCrates

Is this a godly thing to do? When the third person was outed and rumors were being spread, people should have started getting a clue. Someone serves the ministry for a number of years and then they're suddenly working for the other side? After three people I'd start thinking "Nobody's this bad a judge of character." SoCrates

Understood. But look at Jeremiah, he kept warning Isreal for how long? Again, if God's hands were in the ministry the whole indescresion thing would not have gone as far as it did. SoCrates

I don't buy this and I'll tell you why. A little bit of twi doctrine called gift ministries. You mean, in all of twi, there wasn't one prophet willing to stand up to Saint Vic or the Craigmeister? Even if Craigmeister knew the word better and could put together ideas fast, prophets speak for God, as the doctrine goes, and they find away to make the person listen. Look at King David, that prophet got him to listen. That's one of the things that have stuck in my craw since hearing about Saint Vic and Craigmeisters little indescretions. Where were the prophets to get them back on track? SoCrates

Well, you know they say there are no atheist in foxholes. There probably are no atheist on deathbeds, either. When confronted with the great unknown, a person will grasp at any straw. SoCrates

Change a couple words, omit a certain name, and that could be me, describing my FLO experience. Change a couple words, retain the name and you have my WOW experience. Well, at least the ministry is consistant. It just about consistant us all to death. SoCrates

I read that page and I was amazed by how many of the sociopathic traits Saint Vic had. SoCrates

Wh-wh-what w-were you s-saying (hic)? Wh-wh-where's the Dr-dr-drambuie? (hic) SoCrates

Our thoughts and the ancients thoughts are probably equally profound. Heck our thoughts and a dog's thoughts are probably equally profound: if you can't eat it, make love to it or sleep on it, pee on it. SoCrates

The synopsis? Play a little game: see how many of a sociopaths traits match up with Saint Vic's. You could even turn it into a drinking game: everytime Saint Vic's and a sociopath's traits match, take a drink. SoCrates

(nods) And Saint Vic had a lot of sociopathic traits: lack of empathy for his victims being a big one. See if this sounds at all like Saint Vic: Profile of the Sociopath This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths. Glibness and Superficial Charm Manipulative and Conning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. Shallow Emotions When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. Incapacity for Love Need for Stimulation Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. Callousness/Lack of Empathy Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. Irresponsibility/Unreliability Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed. Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily. Other Related Qualities: Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them Authoritarian Secretive Paranoid Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired Conventional appearance Goal of enslavement of their victim(s) Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love) Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim Incapable of real human attachment to another Unable to feel remorse or guilt Extreme narcissism and grandiose May state readily that their goal is to rule the world (source) SoCrates

Most likely it was a jpeg off another website. Confirmed: it came off of imageshack. If you go to the post and press the "reply" button you'll see the web address between the img-/img tags. SoCrates

Beliefs are no guarantee for truth. As a matter of fact, our brain is hardwired with a belief engine: something that spins out beliefs in all directions: about people, about events, about opportunities and chances. Why? Put simply: a rabbit hears grass russling, believing its a fox, the rabbit hops away to pass its genes onto another generation. If that rabbit hung around to verify its belief, it may or may not have passed its genes to the next generation. Being complex creatures, we humans can believe all kinds of fanciful things: UFOs and unicorns, Nessie and Nirvana. They may be true they may not, it doesn't change our ability to believe in them. I suppose the trick is to realize its a belief and not take it as reality. SoCrates

That sounds familia. SoCrates

Oh, wow, heavy deja vu. SoCrates

More sand sculptures:

They always do, Ham, they always do. Truth always eventually outs, sometimes it may take years, but it eventually outs. SoCrates