So_crates

Thousands of grads? And you've talked to every one of them, right? A large disdain for the pure negativity posted here. So where are these "thousands"? Nobody here stops them from logging on and challanging that "pure negativity." Credibility with the grads. If the grads want to have credibility with ME they need to get more honest and admit the rampaging evil in the ministry.

Hence, the throwing down the stairs story. A further attempt to distance Leonard and cast him in a less than positive light.

So, Mike, why does it seem that Saint Vic is attracted to people who mistreat others? (Birds of a feather, perhaps?) First, the guy that snaps at his wife. Now, a guy who throws someone down stairs for the venial sin of being late. Two, three steps or twenty steps makes little difference. Either way the person could have been hurt or even killed (should he have hit his head) by such an idiotic move. Nowadays, in the least, that's assault and it can get you time cooling your heels at the crowbar motel.

I think it was in The Way: Living In Love. The guys wife asked him when he'd be back and he responded, in effect, when he gets back.

I added more comment to the previous post. I agree with you whole heartedly. But, if that's the reason Saint Vic seeked him out, it says volumes about the kind of person he was.

According to Mike it wasn't Saint Vic that tossed the student, but BG Leonard. I would agree with you about that being a punishment that don't fit the crime. However, it speaks volumes about Saint Vic's personality if that's the reason he seeked him out. Isn't there another account where a guy snapped at his wife and Saint Vic said his opinion of the individual grew at that moment?

Near the Cleveland Zoo and the YMCA. Ever go to the festival at St. Rocco's? That was where I started grade school. I continued in Buhrer, then attend old Lincoln High School

Inner city? New Knoxville? Lima? I was born in the projects, just off Starkeweather--not too far from St. Augustine and the Eastern Orthodox Church--in interurban Cleveland. I was raised in the 14th and Clarke neighborhood, just two blocks from the Flats. Grassy Hill, the bank of the valley leading to the Flats, was one of my playgrounds. Cleveland--now there's a city.

I, too, try to live by the Golden Rule, Grace. However, with one caveat: The converse of the Golden Rule: Treat others the way they treat you. Not long ago, I worked with a guy who everytime he wanted my attention, he whistled at me or shouted Yo! I took him aside and assertively told him my name and to use that when he wanted my attention. Two days later, "Yo!!" After a sigh, I once again took him aside: "Haven't we had the yo conversation? Once again, use my name. And if you can't remember my name...You know what I do when I don't know someone's name? Sir! or ma'am! To some people manners and politeness may be a sign of weakness, but to me they're a sign of breeding."

Let's pressume your account is correct. So all the student did was show up late, huh? And, for that he was thrown down a flight of stairs, huh? Can anyone imagine Jesus doing this to one of the apostles? And then Saint Vic seeks out this individual because of his unchristian like behavior, no less. So, tell me, how does one learn Christian behavior from people who don't behave like Christians

We were predisposed to doing stupid things because some leader had brain flatulance. "Obey the MOG, even if he's wrong, then God will bless you," remember? Like any authoritarian culture, they make promises for the future. Then when those promises don't come to pass, they make excuses. I always loved the believing equals recieving con. After falling on your tail end a dozen times, you go to leadership to find out what's up. Then you have to present everything you did for the last dozen times so they could find that one millisecond where they could claim you weren't believing.

Another thing a cult does is convince you the cult knows what's better for you than you do. I heard one ministry leader try and explain this by claiming: "I know what you want better than you do, I know the Christ in you."

What is it with cult leaders and their quasi-military affiliations? Saint Vic had the Corps; LRH had the Sea Org. A good book to read about both scientology and the Sea Org, is Beyond Belief by Jenna Miscavige Hill.

The Scorpion And The Frog A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion says, “Because if I do, I will die too.” The frog is satisfied, and they set out. But in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp “Why?” Replies the scorpion: “It’s my nature…”

Or as I'm fond of saying, "I'm not a country boy, but that doesn't mean I don't know horse manure when I step in it."

I think if someone demanded I show them my checkbook and paycheck stub to prove I was properly ABSing, I'd tell them,"Good idea, you want to show me you checkbook and paystub to prove to me YOUR properly ABSing?"

I'm thinking a poisoned well because of all the lies Saint Vic et al perpetrated. The Word as its presented by The Way is poison, as it kills the soul. The whole ministry is not based on providing means of salvation, as it claims, its based on filling whoevers in power's belly: First Saint Vic, then LCM, then RR. The faces change, but the purpose remains the same: to fulfill their lusts. In my book, that's not only a broken cistern, that's poisoning the water. And, like drawing water from a well, the assorted spin off groups are attempting to package this tainted water as new and improved spring water that will refresh your soul and quench your thirst.

What I meant was PLAF was intentionally designed to wear you down, hence the running time of each class. After a half hour, 45 minutes your ability to think critically drops off dramatically and you start just accepting what your told

It's a question I would ask them, and JAL, and anyone else trying to restore the (pfttttttttttttt!) "glory" of Saint Vic's ministry: So tell me, how do you build a fountain of living waters based on water drawn from a poisoned well?

Burnt Chaff chaffing The Way's butt since 2000

Socks said: One thing I do know - classes taught to people in living rooms huddled on brown metal chairs every night suck. It's a painful way to reach people but many of us endured. There are better ways to pass on the teachings of the Bible and the fundamentals of the Christian faith. It works but I feel so sad whenever I see photos of people in chairs in rooms somewhere and a guy at a table up front huddled down, "teaching". They talk, you shut up and listen, questions later. There are better ways, Socks. But those don't wear you down, leading to brainwashing and Waybrain.

Of course they didn't want anyone doing their own research. Your own research might lead to the realization that PLAF is riddled with errors and Saint Vic is a fraud.

Thank you, WordWolf, for articulating what I was asking in the Exit Stage Left thread more throughly.

One possible reason TWI never taught proper budgetting: Why would they want to deprive themselves of more ABS? It's hard to convince people to live at need when you've told them to budget 15% to ABS.