So_crates

And while your challanging us to re-think some things, are you, also willing to re-think some things?

Is that a challange?

My, my, my, aren't you choice? You complain people are demanding proof from you, yet you feel no compunction about making demands on them: You demand our respect, without being willing to give respect. As I said respect is answering questions, not wasting people's time, and not belittling others (Remember: You need to get a more rounded education?) While that may work in a classroom, we're all adults here. I'm probably close to your age. Where you may have been around the block, I've been across the street. So you want respect, start giving it. Your the one that demanded I drop out of the debate because you couldn't answer: If God owns everything and that makes it okay to steal others intellectual property, why would it be wrong to steal your PLAF book? (Thanks Twinky) So its okay for you to demand, but no one else, right? You demand we buy into your claim PLAF is God breathe. When asked for proof you take us off into the weeds, discussing everything but what was asked. When in debate you demand we accept your premises, but you refuse to look at ours. You claim the only way to prove it is to do it. Well, I did it. For 43 years of my life I did it. It failed me miserably. So much for that premise. So, before you complain about others demanding, maybe you should stop demanding yourself, huh?

That respect you want, your not so good about giving. The respectful thing to do is answer a question when asked. Look, I dig it. My step father was a big muckity muck in the local school corporation, he was on the board, worked his way up from a teacher, to a principal, to working in the corporation offices. The biggest problem when we talked to him was he forgot we were adults (as my brother would say, he'd been a teacher too long), he thought he was still talking to students. I don't know where you come from, but in my parts of the woods, you get respect by giving it. You had my respect, then you started dodging questions and telling people they needed a rounded education. What you fail to understand is most of us here have done your program and its failed us miserably. Please don't tell me about believing. I first attended twig when I was 18 and I had no job, no car. When I first got into the ministry, I would hitchhike home 12-miles, in all seasons, after twig. How much believing you think that took? Then, after I moved into town, I had an hour an a half hike one way to twig. I would walk both ways. How much believing do you think that took? Did God provide me the means to get a drivers license and a car? No. I finally did get a car, long after I left the ministry and when I was well into my 40s. Even after I left The Way, I blamed my self for things not working out. After years and years of trying to get the principles to work, I came to a conclusion: it wasn't me, it was the doctrine. All this time, while I was faithfully trying to get PLAF to work, my life went by, my preductive years went by. All that believing and what do I have to show for it? So, if I'm a hard sell, now you know why.

Is this what all that love of God in renewed mind in manifestation has taught you? To waste other people's time? I'm fighting lymphoma and Parkinson's Disease, so I don't have to play games

Sorry, I'm going to a conversation where I'll accomplish something. Good luck with that.

So maybe we should all stop wasting our time with him.

Didn't he also claim that the devil in order to get even with him made the McDonald's logo an upside down "W"

You just love to stall, don't you? Admit you don't know, because that's all your telling me with this poor excuse for an excuse.

Your tempted to work on that question? In other words, you have no argument proving your claim that PLAF is God breathe. What would Euclid say? You just claimed you knew the circumference of a circle without consulting the formula.

And despite all that shopping around and comparing, you find it hard to honestly answer one question. (See the thread: Is PLAF God-breathe?)

What kind of proof you got? Balls in your court, dude.

Why ain't I disappointed? Somehow I knew you'd dodge the question. You have an answer or no? If I asked you how to find the area of a circle you wouldn't be showing me The Way two-step.

Do I need to enumerate all of Saint Vic's liberties taken with the truth? How do we know he not just giving us another snow on gas pumps story? Or another claim like he invented the hook shot or fast food?

Didn't that happen to Seven of Nine?

You didn't touch a nerve. Someone asked you for your proof in Who will write the book. Your response was to question whether or not you need to start another thread. Rather than wait for you to get around to it (which I doubt you ever will) I shortcutted the process. I'm calling you out: You claim PLAF is God-breathe, prove it.

I find it interesting that your flummoxed by the "pure evil" Saint Vic paradigm. Refresh my memory: How many victims did he threaten to claim they were devil possessed if they came forward with their story? Did you forget about the guy that said a tracking program was better than what The Way offered? What happened to him? Saint Vic screamed he was devil possessed in front of the whole auditorium. Seems Saint Vic had no problems branding others as "pure evil", but heaven forbid someone do that to him.

And were you miss the point and refuse to open your eyes is that the ideology was set up to protect Saint Vic. Believing isn't a spiritual principle, it's a way for Saint Vic et al to blame the victim. His interpretation about Paul's thorn in the flesh was to cover for his womanizing. "If I were to blame Paul..., I'd want to show it to him line by line and word by word." His story about how he would never give a negative sermon again was to cover for his alcoholism.

You knew Saint Vic personally? That would bring you objectivity even more into question. Your too close to the subject to retain an objective point of view. You saw him do good? Didn't Saint Vic teach that even the devil does good, so he can lead us deeper into bondage? And were those people Saint Vic did good for lead deeper into bondage? Rather than telling her to get a rounded education to think differently (after all, you have a "rounded education" and look how you refuse to "think differently"), perhaps you should consider some of what people have been saying here. After all, Saint Vic told us what he was at the beginning of every class: John 10:10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. So we've already went over how Saint Vic stole others works. He also stole their youth and their potential. Of those women he was indiscreet with, you care to hazard a guess on how many of their spirits he killed? Of those he abused, you care to hazard a guess on how many of them he destroyed any desire for Christianity? And of all this, how many got that abundant life he promised?

Take her away Mike.

Mike: The pure evil paradigm is just plain wrong. It totally ignores the great good done for thousands of grads. It's not believable to those who were there and got good fruit in their lives for it. Me: And your paradigm ignores the 10s of thousands that were raped and abused under Saint Vic's rule. First off, Saint Vic was a sex addict. Do you understand what that means? The addict's whole life revolves around that next hit. He was too busy searching for victims and victimizing to do anyone any good. If any good was done in the ministry, the credit doesn't go to him, it goes to thousands of twig leaders who were in the trenches dealing with the people day to day. Then there's the question of if Saint Vic helped so many people, where are they? Again, nobody here stops them from logging in and presenting their viewpoint. If--and that's a very big if--Saint Vic did so much for them I would think they would want to preserve his legacy. However, of those thousands you claim, in the six or seven years I been in this forum, I've only seen two other people--a husband and a wife--praising the ministry. So where are these thousands? Mike: A few brave grads have dared to do just that. A few have come to the attention of TWI. By far, most of these violations were met with a stern letter from the law offices of the TWI attorney, but it was mostly bluff. I did hear of one grad getting significantly hassled, but he was in leadership AND he was not very wise in how he crossed them. I think he's fine now, though. Me: So your telling me the ministry tried to protect Saint Vic's copyrighted stolen goods, how unique. Mike: On the funny side, I have always wondered how the judge for a serious TWI lawsuit against a PFAL bootlegger would react to seeing all the plagiarism charges (with full text examples) against TWI, VPW, and PFAL. I also think TWI staff and attorney wonder with great dread how such a judge would react. I have toyed with the theory (here) years ago that VPW and God purposely set it up this way so that we can have the gold. By now, after 30 full years of copying, there are many hundreds (if not a few thousand) of bootleg copies of the class videos and books circulating. The material has been effectively driven into the public domain. I think this may have been deliberate. ...and is quite hilarious! Me: So then your saying there's no ministry, right? After all everything's in public domain. Have you checked these so called bootleggers? I have. One group changed the ministries dogma just enought to make it legal, i.e., said believing only worked within the individual and that the giants mentioned in Genesis were actual giants. I wonder how many of those bootleggers did the same thing.

And I think it's fair to say you completely avoid commenting on my points. You decry the "pure evil" Saint Vic portrait here, yet you embody the things that make that paradigm. Saint Vic's do as I say not as I do attitude. What do you think would happen to me if I started collecting money and teaching PLAF without the ministry's blessing? Wanna bet I'd get a cease and desist letter from Kanwee, Cheetum, and Howe, attorneys at law? Of course, I'd send them a letter back explaining that all intellectual property is God's and I'm ordained (by Universal Life Church), so I have the right to charge and teach it. How long do you think it'll be before I wind up in court for a copyright violation? Saint Vic's circular logic. "This is true because I say it's true"

Another apples to oranges comparison. God clearly states no idols, just as he clearly states no stealing. Nowhere does he state "Because I own everything your free to steal other people's work." Or is that a commandment I missed somewhere? I've shown you "line by line and word by word" where it says we're to obey the laws of men. The least you could do is present the same: "show me line by line and word by word" where it says God owns everything and that gives us the right to steal. Mike: Everyone must select basic assumptions in life, and build from there. Euclid's Geometry does this. It starts with Euclid's BEST set of FIVE assumptions or postulates, and built the rest from there. Me: You forgot one word: Proven. Everyone must select basic PROVEN assumptions in life. For example, I assume gravity doesn't exist, so I can fly, should I do a one and a half pike off a building? I assume flames only burns non-organic matter, should I stick my hands in a fire Mike: I am able to face great opposition with my mindset. Can you folks claim the same? Me: Sure. You know anyone who can provide great opposition? So far, for me, its been like playing pigeon chess: Mike: Everyone here is arguing VERY POORLY against me IF IT IS THE CASE that PFAL (and some of its predecessors) is God-breathed, and therefore owned by God. This ownership is current, and not that vague, overall, eventual ownership someone keeps throwing at me. Me: No, you've argued very poorly that Saint Vic has the right to steal. Your arguments are rittled with false equivances and logical fallacies. Oh, and circular logic. Let's not forget circular logic (This is true because I say it's true). I'm sure if a student turned in a paper like your arguments you'd waste no time giving them an "F". My advise: fire your advisors, you know those people you have coming onto the forum to check your work, then run to to see what to answer. One of the problems with an echo chamber is nobody can think outside the echo chamber.

No, ownership is easy when all these people who claim to follow the bible, search the bible: So what of Roman 13:2: So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. Couple that with I Peter 2:13: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; How does man's law define theft? You've already admitted Saint Vic violated the copyright laws So, where's the problem? And as your mulling over that remember Proverbs 1:11: A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

Where I'm lost, Waysider, is why we're accepting an orientalism, or custom, of the Middle East to explain behavior here. We're not in the Middle East and their customs don't apply. Is their somewhere in the bible where God commands the fig tree be a community tree?