So_crates

The first error you made was God forgives when we admit our transgressions. Saint Vic never admitted he transgressed. During the early days when Saint Vic claimed it was okay to be in a orgy because God would have wrote "It was best not to touch a woman" rather than the "It is good" He wrote. He threatened his victims with saying they were possessed by devil spirits. That sound repentant to you? All the way through the latter days, one person in this forum describes how he approached Saint Vic with his indiscretions. Saint Vic's answer, "We don't discuss that." And the individual sat in the room for several minute threatened by a growling dog. This sound repentant to you? Did God forgive David? Yes he did after he admitted his sins. I'm willing to bet the same is true with anyone in the bible. Confession leads to redemption. Not continuing in lust leads to great revelation. What does PLAF teach? When we sin we're out of fellowship--we're out of alignment and harmony. Until we ask for forgivenss, God is unable to bless us. This includes his spirit moving in us to reveal great revelations. I serious doubt Saint Vic ever asked for forgiveness, because, as the "best man not touc a woman," line proves he never thought he was wrong. How did Saint Vic put it? "God would have to rewrite all the laws in the universe to accomodate him."

I find it very telling that Twinky, T-Bone, or I challange you and your excuse is that you don't have time. Yet you have time to present a several inch post on Professor Irwin Corey. Like I said, you can tell a lot about people by the questions they avoid answering.

Every word and concept in PLAF have also been contested. What is believing? How does one get born again? Water baptism or baptism in the holy spirit? These continue to be contested by scholars/ Does that make PLAF "devoid of authority"? Why the bible and not PLAF? No, we marked in the bible because a con man told us we were getting a more accurate translation. It wasn't a matter of authority, it was a matter of accuracy. Remember making it so it "fits like a hand in a glove." Or so it work "with a mathematical accuracy and scientific precision." What do you think was the purpose of all those "literals according to usage"? Authority? Maybe for Saint Vic. For most of us it was accuracy. I'll ask you another question: If I mark up a book of civil law is it "devoid of authority"? Would you like to dance around a little more? We're back to that depends on what the definition of 'is' is. Ask Joe Sixpack what a bible is, he know. As him where its authority comes from, he knows. Unforunately, I didn't ask him, I asked you. Like I said, you can tell a lot about people by the questions they avoid answering.

What's with all this hemming and hawing? Did Peter beat around the bush after Pentacost? Did Paul dance people around at Mars Hill? Did Saint Vic tell us to speak with boldness? Still aviding my two questions I see. Why? a). If the bible is devoid of authority does that mean Revelations is devoid of authority? b). Mike claims the KJV is devoid of authority because we mark in it. Where does he think the bible gets its authority from?

You can also learn a lot about people from the questions they avoid answering.

I held off getting involved because I was letting Mike "thesis" play out, but there's still a couple of questions I'm curious about: a). If the bible is devoid of authority does that mean Revelations is devoid of authority? b). He claims the bible is devoid of authority because we mark in it. Where does he think the bible gets its authority from?

I can see where I made the error, WW. I was thinking of cohesion as being like a close knit family (family of God, how much closer knit should that be) And members of a close knit family would never dream of losing contact with one another. In reality, The Way was more like a poker tournament, where a core group was making the rules, but the players were interchangable and come and go.

Mike claims in PLAF Saint Vic said, Thus sayeth the Lord, 22 times. Sifting through my memory, I can maybe remember once, maybe. But, if that's all it takes, saying, Thus sayeth the Lord, what if I said, Thus sayeth the Lord PLAF is drek. Does that negate PLAF?

So what your telling me is all I have to do is cross out God everywhere in PLAF and write in Ctuhulu and PLAF is devoid of authority. You don't see your error here? The bible's or any translation's authority is not based on whether or not you scribble in it any more than a civil law book's authority is based on what you scribble in it. The bible's authority is based on the fact it's God-breathe, it came from God. Mike: anyone who comfortably crosses out a word in their KJV and puts the correction in the margin KNOWS that the KJV is devoid of authority. Me: Since you claim KJV is devoid of authority, this brings about another interesting question: Does this mean Revelations is devoid of authority? Mike: You wrote: "On what evidence do you base this opinion?" Is this a joke? It's a coming full circle back to the original topic of this thread. I promised Rocky that I'd back off in answering this question so I can write my manifesto, or a precursor to it, off line. I'll NEVER get off line this way. You'll have to wait for this, or go back and re-read my posts. I think you'll find my answer there several times over Me: If I read correctly, Raf, Rocky, and I were a journalist at one time in our lives. (Yah, I know my spelling sucks (google dysgraphia sometime). Within the course of our jobs, we were often given reports that were reams of paper long. Our job: narrow it to a given amount of column inches. How? Well, there's this little miracle of journalism called the inverted triangle. In your case, start with the most compelling argument, then go to the next, rinse and repeat.

I would agree, Sky, as one of the things I found shocking was one of the other members of my twig saying leadership said women should use men's wantimg to date them to get men to take the class. However, some social cohesion was seriously lacking. For example, all of the WOWs (state and national) would come into the area, put in their year talking about how we're the family of God, leave, and, outside of seeing them at the Rock or at state functions, were never heard from again.

Mike in black Rocky in red Me below Mike, you're not helping your cause by responding to every tangential point anyone tries to make. Yes. I can see that. The problem is the tangents are important also, and sometimes will be crucial later to my arguments. It's not easy to avoid this temptation to chase after some to the good tangents. Make your case, as clearly and succinctly as you can. I'd bet you'll feel better when you do. Perhaps if you go offline and write it up as such, then come back and post it, it will be less frustrating for you and other readers and posters. That's EXACTLY what I keep planning to do, and then a juicy tangent comes rolling in. There's been a lot of posting. I'm confident, however, that when you do so, people here will still pick it apart. But at least you'll be able to say you made an effort to develop a coherent case. ANYTHING can be picked apart. The question is how well. ########## Alot can be eliminated by being prepared. In my university days, that's one of the first things the professors and TAs taught me: Come to class prepared It's like Shakespeare said, Readiness is all.

And it depends on what the meaning if 'is' is. /sarc

Another thing struck me as I read WW post quoting this quote. Which school were the graduation movies and which school is he drawing grad numbers from? The text is unclear whether its PTS or PP.

That's what most people miss about Saint Vic: he wanted control. Anything that gave him control he did. If he had to make up a docterate and imply he went to an Ivy League school, he did. If he had to create stories about snowstorm to legitimize his MOG status, he did.

You suggest a study be done because you think somehow that will legitimize Saint Vic. How about we do a study on the Parker Brothers docterate he got from Pike Peak?

On the contrary, I think he was trying to skew his post. It's obvious through the use of "Princeton" and the overall lack of detail. It would have been just as easy to write a roomful of people as it was to type a number of people.

Yah and interestingly enough it has a PhD program, which oddly enough Saint Vic didn't continue on through. He prefered a Parkers Brothers degree through a mail in school If you bothered to read my post, you'd see I said the average Joe upon hearing Princeton would think Princeton University

I beg to differ. I think most posters here agree on certain things: that Saint Vic did more evil than good, that the Way is a cult, that PLAF is riddled with errors.Which you would notice if you read other posts. So, if you refuse to budge on your beliefs then the only honorable thing to do is to leave us to our beliefs. Yah, a post that left out a lot of details and made it sound like Saint Vic attended an Ivy League school--which he didn't. Very credible/sarc

If someone yelled at me because they didn't like what I did, I probably tell them it was their believing. I had one time my twig leader tried to give me a face melting. He yelled at me for about ten minutes, while I sat calmly shutting him off. His yelling was like a loud tv making background noise to me. After ten minutes, he took a breath and looked at me. Calmly, I asked, "Finished?" He nodded. Still calm: "What do you think you proved?" His face turned the color of a boiled ham: "Is anybody in there?...

Unfortunately, we in twigs were not in a boot camp or a locker room. The Way was supposed to be a church, not a military or football team.

If that's the case then he should afford us the same courtesy and leave us to the way we think.

Well, then, I suppose, you will understand that there are SOME things we're settled on.

Grace, I think the crux of his problem is a bit more fundimental then that. He thinks he's going to teach (or as he says, "(get us to) re-think some things" His primary failure is that he wants us to "re-think" things, but doesn't want to do so himself. One way streets seldom work out in life.