So_crates

And this has what to do with the price of bull in PLAF? Rather than addressing the subject let's go around the block and look at a few trees. What you saw wasn't because of Saint Vic, it was in spite of him. There were some people working in the trenches that weren't boozing, weren't stealing others intellectual property, and weren't womanizing and they reaped the rewards. And yet he insisted on continuing in his evil ways. As I said, if I buy what your attempting to sell I can be as evil as I want to everyone as long as I say I'm sorry afterwards. Isn't that taking advantaage of God's grace? And your source for this retranslation? The very person who did not want to be judged, but was really good about judging everyone else. Unfortunately, the way you translate the verse puts it in direct conflict with I Cor 6:3 which tell us we'll judge angels, so how much more the thing that pertain to this life. Does Saint Vic's behavior pertain to this life? I would say so. Some people are an example of what not to be. So he showed us how a man can have a godly appearance, yet not have any godliness. No revelation, no signs, no miracles, no wonders. We're not talking about the end of his life. We're talking about his behavior throughout his life and how that prevents him from inheriting the Kingdom of God, including revelation.

So, let's continue Saint Vic's dishonesty by using his tactics. You can't explain away I Cor 6:9-10 and James 2:14-26 so let's ignore them and talk about anything else. Nor can you explain what happened to all those "signs, miracles, and wonders that follow a man of God the way a tail follows a dog". It unfortunate that by refusing to address these points it casts suspicion on the rest of your "thesis."

I notice you change the subject, that's the figure of speeech avoidis defactos. It occurs when people encounter facts that don't fit their dogma so they ignore the facts, right? Which, interestingly enough, is exactly the same thing Saint Vic did with adultry, theft, and boozing. They didn't fit what he wanted the bible to say, so he ignored them. John Quincy Adams said: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. As Saint Vic himself admitted, when your out of fellowship, God can't bless you, including recieving the gifts of God. Bottom line: If Saint Vic couldn't recieve the gifts of God, including revelation, you could show 2000 places where you claim he said thus saith the Lord and they would all be moot. So now, back on track: What of I Cor 6:9-10 and James 2:14-26? Where were those "signs. miracles, and wonders that were supposed to follow a man of God like a tail follows a dog"? Is there an account that Saint Vic tried to right his wrongs, as anybody truely repentant would do? So then how can you claim Saint Vic repented and could recieve revelation? And, since your not the one supposedly granting absolution, give me the chapter and verse where it says, line by line and word by word, that you can be out of fellowship and still recieve revelation.

Mikes quotes in red My responses in black NO! I am not saying that God thinks it’s ok to abuse people. Yes you are. Saint Vic sets the example. As I said, a truely repentful person tries to right his wrong. Did he ever try to write his wrong? So where are all the people telling us about the transgressions he's righted? What your saying is its okay to do evil as long as your sure you say your sorry and be repentful afterward. Before I cast any stones on any one individual I require complete documentation of ALL goo deed and ALL bad deeds. I think that's a nice way of dismissing myself from an impossible task: by demanding impossible stipulations. The stipulation is only impossible because you make it impossible. Like I told you before, the truths of God are simple. If they weren't we wouldn't understand them. The simple truth of fellowship and repentance is when you transgress your responsible to right your wrong (Faith without works is dead, remember?) No attempt to right your wrong, no repentance, which means your out of fellowship an don't recieve the gifts of God, including revelation. If I can find a the right kind of search engine I can find a similar topic that I’ve posted extensively on. It’s the criteria we use to hire a minister versus the criteria God uses when He issues a job to someone. We can only do background checks, but God can also check the future for sins not yet committed. There’s something for a Catholic theologian to sink some teeth into. LONG topic. What you've posted on. Has anybody bothered to ask God? I did: I Cor 6:9-10. James 2:14-26. Even Saint Vic wrote in PLAF, if your out of fellowship with God He can't bless you. Further proof of this is Saint Vic's comment: "Sign, miracles, and wonders follow the man of God the way a tail follows a dog." So where were all those signs, miracles, and wonders? Once again, I think you need to study your PLAF materials a little more.

You don't listen do you? Your "temptation" to make me your straightman quelled all desire for me to listen to your message. (pointing over Mikes head and behind Mike) Look Mike there goes the point. It's not about Jesus laughing its about making fun of someone offering constructive criticism Further, Saint Vic never recieved revelation from God. How do I know? I Cor 6:9-10 : Adulterers, nor theives, nor drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If He's not going to allow them to inherit the kingdom, why would he give them revelation? But, Saint Vic repented, you say. Sorry, he never did. How do I know? A truely repentant person would make an effort to make things right (unlike the phoney repentant person who thinks sorry is enough). Saint Vic never tried to right his wrongs, therefore he never repented.

Deflect. deflect, deflect. So you take what I offer as constructive criticism and make me your straightman with it. Now how much do you think I want to listen to what you have to say? How much do you think I care what you have to say? Did Jesus Christ ever do this? Further proof PLAF has failed you. Where's your meekness? You claim that that the link you provided was a mudfight. Well, why was it a mudfight? Perhaps because you pulled the same tactics you've been pulling for the last 12 years? Wanting to spread doctine rather than listening Pontificating rather than conversing "I don't have the time to explain it." "I'm not prepared " "I have to think about that" Insulting people, then trying to put it off as their misunderstanding Every time you get caught, you claim its our misunderstanding Making people the but of jokes Refusing to answer legitimate question Constantly accusing everyone else of trying to silence you Any critique is met with claims of someone trying to tear it apart or pounce on you You don't understand how your attitude and manner destroy your message? This list is from just the couple weeks I've known you Can you see why you have mudfights? You cause the mudfights with your condescending attitude and constant talking down to people. Once you alienate your audience, everything else you say is air. A few posts back, you wrote: THEN I eventually left GS and wanted to start a separate discussion forum for proPFAL people. It’s still up, with lots of grandiose expectations, but no one showed up very much So what happened? I thought you said you knew the GSC audience better than I did. Where are all these ProPLAF people you claim are out there? Could your attitude and manner be chasing them away? All 11 of those points plus your attitude and manner tell me there's more ego working than holy ghost. You seem to forget: We went through this with Saint Vic, most of us have learned our lesson.

Are their others your not mentioning? And this is supposed to be proof your thesis is correct? Okay, my thesis is that Saint Vic is a Keebler elf and makes cookies in a hollow tree. People scoff at me over my thesis. Does that make my thesis true? Buried by someone at GSC? No, then why make it sound like someone's trying to hide it? Have you ever heard of cut and paste? I'm not about to slog through 41 pages of dribble, dribble, dribble to locate something you could have just as easily cut and paste. Remember: Your making the assertation, burden of proof is on you.

Have you ever considered your getting reciprocity? People have asked you questions and shown interest in your thesis and what have you responded? I don't have time for that. Or I have to think about that. Twinky asked you the simplest question of them all in the thread she created. Your response: I'm not prepared. One of the first things they taught me at the university was always show up at meetings prepared. I write screenplays and they have a thing called an elevator pitch. What's that? Suppose your on an elevator with a producer, how would you explain your project in the time he's in the elevator? Again, this shows how much PLAF has failed you. Your displaying negative believing. Everytime someone criques or asks about something you say you accuse them of tearing it apart or pouncing. If a salesman was trying to sell me a car or house or even a laptap, I would have questions and not because I'm trying to tear his pitch apart or pounce on him. Questions are a normal part of the process

Do you think maybe your trying to rationalize your way out of a bad situation? After all, it wasn't to long ago you told another female member of this forum she needed a more rounded education. You know, you might accomplish more if you'd stop talking down to people

For those in Way 3.0, and now Way 4.0, who wondered what all the hubbub was surrounding Athletes of the Spirit:

Gloating: in bf Now, in a do onto others scenerio, would you want someone tell you they're laughing at you? The fact you can't see this error tells me there's more ego then holy spirit moving. And part of the love of God is to take responsibility for your communication. I'm hearing too many things labelled miscommunication by you. If your not getting the results you want in the communication, change the way the message is transmitted.

Hint: Christ formed is a big deal. And , of course, your showing us an example of how well PLAF formed Christ in you by gloating, right? Strange, I don't recall the love of god and renewed mind involving gloating. Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

My origional comments in black Mike's responses are in blue My responses are between the dashes Geometry works 100% for everybody everywhere in the universe. There isn't no problem with understanding knowing the formula for finding the area of a square or volume of a cube. They are stated very simply .THAT'S the key word, "simply." They are simple scalar numbers. Conversely, the parameters in the Law of Believing are not numerical but far more complicated than tensors. ------------------------------------ So what your saying is that God, who created a law that defines a human life (The just shall zoe by pistis, remember?) and in his infinite wisdom he made that same law that humans rely on for everything so complicated its beyond human comprehension. Heck, He made it even more complicated than gravity (fall too far you'll get hurt), intertia, or even changing matter to energy, as all that conversion requires is knowing E=MC-square. In my book, after 42 years of experience, IF there was a law of believing, somebody would have studied it and know the physics of it. However, interesting enough, PLAF doesn't provide anything buy the principles I outlines and everything else, by your words, is more complicated ---------------------------------------------- Believing isn't like that and therefore must be false .NO! and people use excuses to try and scoot it into the T column of the truth table. .So what's the difference? You scoot it into the F column simply because you wan tthe parameters to be as simple as stretching a tape measure. It's LIFE we're talking about, not simple geometry. Beef up your analogy a bit, and try again. Avoid the oversimplification. ----------------------------------------------------- No, I scoot it into the F column based on 42 years of experience. Yah, it's life, not geometry. Okay, does gravity work the same for everybody. How complicated is it? How hard is it to figure you fall too far you hurt yourself? Does it require a lot of complication? Say I'm attempting to create a perpetual motion machine and I claim I know this one law in physics nobody else knows. After 42 years of failure, I have to re-evaluate whether that law I'm so sure of really exists. Your also trying to deny the truths of God are simple. Let's take the big truth, the new birth: confess with your mouth, believe in your heart. Simple, no camera analogies, no clear and concerned, no Oh, but its more complicated than that. Confess, believe, poof. Now why would God once again, make a law so crucial to human life, as the law of believing, more complicated than that? There's no oversimplification on my part, just recognition that somebody's trying to con me. ------------------------------------------------------- What did Saint Vic tell us about the bible, in PLAF? Throw one thing out and you might as well throw the whole thing out, right? . NO! I answered that days ago. And since your claim is that PLAF replaces the bible...NO! Again: that's a WAY oversimplification. .So now, because the law of believing doesn't fit your purpose your trying to throw it out..NO! I throw out my juvenile understanding of it, that came from memorizing the film class words. I come back to written PFAL and re-study the Law of Believing. . You want to throw the rest of PLAF out or shall I? .By now I shouldn't have to say much. ----------------------------------------------------------- A few post back you were claiming repitition was needed, now your claiming meh, I covered that. So, which is it? It's also been noted in other posts by others that you have a way of claiming you address issues, yet you never did. So answer it again or tell me where you did answer it. And Saint Vic never wrote throw one thing out you might as well throw the whole thing out, right? And he never wrote the truth or lie quote, right? I think you need to restudy your PLAF books. Or are you going to claim those sentences aren't God-breathe because they don't fit your purpose? -------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, as far as learning to SIT and see the dead are dead, they're both in the bible. Why would I need something else to tell me what the bible already does? .They are BURIED in the KJV to get the terminology more accurate. Buried BAD! None of us would have ever found them. The very few who could find them would never be able to pass on their findings very much. They'd STAY buried in the texts. ------------------------------------------------------- Yah, they'd stay buried. Nobody has ever found them. Nobody like say the Jehovah Witnesses or any charasmatic group or BG Leonard or any of the authors Saint Vic stole the text from -------------------------------------------------------- I'll also ask again, if the PLAF occupies so much of your life, why don't you ever quote from it or the bible? .I used to do lots of quotes years ago. This time I've been TRYING to make it Mike-lite. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I understand, quoting the bible would take the spotlight off you and put it on God ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting both KJV and PFAL is very powerful, but it's not exactly the softer tone I'd like to work in. It's pretty hard hitting on you folks, and it's energy intensive on me, retrieving and posting the right stuff. If there's some quote you'd like me to post, I'd be happy to oblige ------------------------------------------------------- I would think if you studied PLAF as intensely as you claim you could quote it right off the top of your head, like I do. I pitched all my PLAF books in the dumpster in the early '90s. My being able to quote it off the top of my head should tell you how much I studied PLAF, believed it, how committed i was and how much I attempted to apply it. The results: nothing. That's why I can confidently say PLAF is a scam And, before you pull the age card, remember I'm probably close to your age,

To which can be added, "Only the writings that support Mike's theory, as he's the one who gets to decide what's God-breathe and what's not."

Again with negative believing. Where's your renewed mind? I thought the purpose of you being here was all those audience members we don't know who pro-PLAF. So, then, why are you seeking our approval?

What's to understand about believing? It being truth it works 100% of the time everywhere for everybody, right? You only need to know what's available, how to recieve it, what to do with it when you got it, and have your needs and wants parallel, right? Camera analogy, clear and concerned, right? Geometry works 100% for everybody everywhere in the universe. There isn't no problem with understanding knowing the formula for finding the area of a square or volume of a cube. They are stated very simply and work time after time. Believing isn't like that and therefore must be false and people use excuses to try and scoot it into the T column of the truth table. What did Saint Vic tell us about the bible, in PLAF? Throw one thing out and you might as well throw the whole thing out, right? And since your claim is that PLAF replaces the bible...So now, because the law of believing doesn't fit your purpose your trying to throw it out. You want to throw the rest of PLAF out or shall I? Further, Saint Vic said, again of the bible in PLAF, it's either all the truth or its a lie. Once again, you claim PLAF replaces the bible....also Saint Vic says the truth works 100% everywhere for everybody. So, I've proved the law of believing is a lie, which in return makes PLAF a lie. Finally, as far as learning to SIT and see the dead are dead, they're both in the bible. Why would I need something else to tell me what the bible already does? I'll also ask again, if the PLAF occupies so much of your life, why don't you ever quote from it or the bible?

Not doing a very good job at sales are you? I bet if someone asked you for ONE THING about your car, your house, your dog you'd have no trouble answering them. Pushed around? Isn't this negative believing? Rather than displaying a lot of negative believing (which shows us how PLAF failed even you), why don't you renew your mind and present one thing?

As far as PLAF goes, here's a simple rule of life: It's easy to promise; it's a lot harder to produce. PLAF proponents will promise you the moon and, when all is said and done, all you'll really get is excuses.

You apparently didn't read what was written a few post back. I was in the ministry a total of seven years of those 42 years, so your rationalization about PLAF and Way trappings falls flat.

And continuing from before.... I've spent 42 years of my life with PLAF, following the principles of renewed mind and believing. That's ignoring ridicule for 42 years thinking: "Watch, I'll come out on top." That's 42 years of telling myself I was a super-conquer and that the best is yet to come. Fourty-two years later, I find little in my life changed. Risks I've taken often failed and those same people encouraging me to take PLAF were no longer around to give me a sense of what I'd done wrong. As I've related many times, PLAF failed me miserably.

More negative expectations. More negative believing.

Expecting negative results again. Have you checked your believing?

Boy, does this bring flashbacks. Once in Way 1.0, I wanted to write a story about a person who becomes a "super-conquerer". So I approached an Advanced Class grad I knew and asked him,"How does one become a super-conquerer?" The best answer he could give was a shoulder shrug. In Way 2.0, after many, many years of applying PLAF and ABSing for a year, I approached my branch leader and asked why I wasn't making any progress. "You need a job making $20 an hour," he said. "Where do you get those?" I asked. "Go to your twig leader for the answer." So, next twig, I approached the twig leader. The answer he gave me: "I don't know." One has to ask: What happened to all the duloses with agope? Where's their pistis? That's the way PLAF works: People are always around to make the promises. "This works 100% of the time, with mathematical accuracy and scientific percision." But when it fails, watch what happens. Suddenly, people are either doubling down, refusing to discuss it, or demanding you believe the way they do. The problem: indoctrination without experience. They've oidaed PLAF but never epiginoskoed it. Or even ginoskoed it for that matter.

Well, I've done it, as I've pointed out, for 42 years. Four times as long as you have. Out of that 42 years, I've spent a mere seven, maybe eight, in the ministry. As I told you, I continued to believe it when I got out. I was in Way 1.0 from 1972 until the latter part of the seventies, then Way 2.0 from 1985 until 1986. So spare me the you didn't give it a chance, or it was your believing speech. As I said, PLAF failed me miserably, and as you can see, the ministry was out of my life more than it was in. So it was the ministry that failed me first, than PLAF.

Which would further re-enforce my suspicions there's more to this then we're being told. From Mike's veiwpoint, I know who the "them" is (GSC), but who's the "us" he's trying to create?