JeffSjo

Welcome Jafin, Welcome to Greasespot and I hope your seeking is fruitful.

Dear E.W. Bullinger, I know what you are asking. For me the line to look for in questions that refer to events like you're describing is: Are those rules based on love and concern. Are those rules based on some twisted desire to control and/ or manipulate and/ or dominate. These options are the extremes with many peoples' opinions usually being somewhere in between. That's just the way that I think about the questions you pose, but I would be interested to hear some good recollections in response to your questions.

Dear Excathedra, I'm very sad that you feel worn out by this whole discussion. I understand completely and hope you get blessed and built up in whatever else you put your head into. GOD BLESS YOU!!!!! I AM SO VERY GLAD THAT YOU'RE HERE. Dear Rascal, I'm amazed at your patience and persistence and I would never think less of you if you didn't want to continue, but I am very happy that you continue to share. Dear Mr rhino, Hammeroni, Skypilot and others( not including whitedove and pond), I enjoy your perspectives and it's clear that you have some information that I've never heard and I wil continue to listen and evaluate. I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT AN ACTION DOESN'T HAVE TO BE TECHNICALLY CRIMINAL FOR THE LORD TO EVENTUALLY BURN THE WORKS. And it doesn't have to pass criminal legal requirements to be discussed here, or even civil legal requirements. Dear whitedove, within the last couple days I read that you councilled folks to watch out for TWI lawyers on the rampage. It blessed me to see you say something that could be considered well intended advice. It doesn't seem like folks here are too concerned. Speaking for myself, I think that if these lawyers you speak of tried too initiate legal action because of the words on this site they'd get there heads handed to them by any reasonable judge.

I'm looking forward to fellowshipping with you skypilot.

There are many scriptures that deal with this topic in the scriptures. My personal favorite most times is 1 COR 13: 1-7 If I don't have love then all my knowledge, sacrifice, or credentials of any kind are worthless and "I AM NOTHING." I THINK THAT GOD KNOWS THIS, COMPLETELY WITHOUT RESPECT OF PERSONS OR RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION.

Hi Brideofjc, I wish I could rely on the greek like you do. I must rely on the translations even though I'm used to different research tools, I'm limited by not being able to read greek. I think folks that say the aramaic texts are a good resorce are correct too. But as there is far less good research tools available it's mostly out of reach for me. Hi guys, I think the discution of the canon of the scripture is fascinating but I am content with the protestant bible even though I have a Catholic version on hand that I use for reference and comparison.

Hi Eyesopen, I definately did not think you were discounting the stories, nor was I trying to correct you. I was only adding what I said to what you said. I think we're pretty much on the same page, and I'm thankful for your willingness to examine the stories.

I think that independent thought is much more important than simple obedience in the long run. Teach em to fish: not just here, eat this or else!!!

Thanks Rascal, I feel the same about you and your credibility too. I definitely did cross the line and try to shut some folks up though, it's just that I'm honest about it and deal with that in a manner that's just as up-front as anything else that I'm trying to say. That name on my avatar is my real name too.

There seems to me a certain necessity to being willing to consider the miraculous event stories as factual. That is clearly another choice that I make. I don't understand the details of the Sodom & Gomorrah either. I'd be interested in any factual evidence at hand, but I will not accept it if it takes out the basic truth of the story in the bible that it was God's judgment. That it was God's judgement is a belief that I have that at the present time I cannot document factually. A common story that scholars like to discuss is the idea that the crossing of the red sea by the children of Israel wasn't miraculous. They relegate the event to be a crossing of a body of water called the Sea of Reeds at low tide. I can understand why someone who didn't believe in miracles would need to find another more normal explanation of the crossing, but I choose to believe in the miraculous version as it's true to what's written and as to it's effect on the readers.

Hi Belle, I choose to rely on my understanding of what the bible says as my ultimate test of truth. I like reading the historical info. though. If there is a clear contradiction between the historical source and the scripture, I'll choose the scripture every time. There are historical sources that claim Jesus Christ's resurection didn't happen for instance, I choose to believe in his resurection. I prefer what I believe to be an informed choice, and not the result of simply being told what to believe though. That being said, some historical sources seem so far out there that I can hardly stomach reading them, but if I choose to look no farther at least that's my choice too.

I've shared with you all that I remember a lot of good things happening in my days with TWI. I've shared that I will choose to remember the grace of God as I saw it and experienced it. I still see the Grace of God in what I remember of TWI. I also believe that there were some terrible mistakes made, often by folks that claimed that being held accountable for sin was simply being legalistic. I also believe that it grew a lot worse after I left TWI about 1990. My opinion is that people were badly hurt even while I was an active participant in TWI but I never saw it. I am completely ready to defend what I remember as the Grace of God in TWI instead of bad assumptions that lead to false accusations, but as there is an attitude of questioning reasonable people like RASCAL who are simply relating experiences that were not even close to good, I cannot mount an attempt to publically prove the Grace of God that I remember. I wish I could, but listening to certain people question the recollection and/ or the motives of reasonable people who were hurt seems to me to be the most grievous thing going on right now. Why would anyone be willing to anyone talk about the good things when their recollection of certain events is called into question along with their motives? The unwillingness to handle abusive events is in itself the single biggest indication of "no credibility" that I can percieve going on here. I think that if folks that were hurt were treated with respect that maybe they might be willing to listen to someone talk about the good things, but I don't blame them for not being willing to look past the sin when nobody is even willing to acknowledge the sin.

Hi Nandon, I hope your thread here is fruitful for you. I will not get involved in the part of the discussion that is about the merits or demerits of certain ministers because I don't know anything about them personally. I believe that Christains are able to seek deliverance from the Lord in any category that we're weak in, but I don't condemn people for needing deliverance. I believe Christains are able to walk in all nine of the manifestations of the spirit. I believe that a lot of what's billed as God's spirit in action is in fact misleading or even perhaps fraud. The very best of what I remember from the old days is a steadfast reliance and love for God along with a rejection of the glory going to the minister. I remember hearing stories of a man who gave up a healing ministry because he felt that the focus should be on God's Word and deliverance from God, not from the man. It is not an easy topic, but ultimately when God moves we can recieve our deliverance as simply as any child who lets his parent bandage a wound. I hope you're encouraged by this.

ditto.

Thanks Rachel, That kind of sums up the importance of it all for me too! For me it's a matter of record that PFAL and many of the same things that were being taght in those days by other men changed a lot of mainline church doctrine. As far as the Catholic church goes I met some Catholics that said that under the "Vatican 2" writings that they were allowed to speak in tounges. As they seemed to know what they were talking about I never questioned it further.

Hi Nandon, I really want you to be delivered of whatever you need to be delivered from!!!!! What exactly do you need deliverance from? Is seeking it your idea or is someone telling you that you need it? Will your deliverance be a free gift of God's love or are there strings attached? Is the deliverance from a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ or from a hookeypooist? ( That's a brand new word for me based on an old one.) The hookeypooist that acts as a minister is the most difficult to spot. These are a few of the things that I consider and I don't know any of the people that the rest of these folks are talking about.

Thank you very much Sweetpotato, I'm just glad that I'm still welcome here.

I've grown up in a scandinavian family and eat Lutefisk. Posessed chicken holds no fear for me. :) Scandinavians used to soak cod filets in a lye based marinade, rinse it, then throw it on their roofs to dry. After it was dry they could stack it like cordwood and it would keep forever. They would cook it by boiling or baking with a lot of water to reconstitute it. Like I said, posessed chicken holds no fear for me. I probably would pray first though. :)

Well, I didn't do so good with that did I? I've posted some more thoughts on this in my "Hi Everyone" thread in the new member section.

Hi everyone, I'd like to share some more in terms of introducing myself. But before that, thank you everyone for the kind words to me. Recently I've been notified that no more personal attacks on my part will be tolerated, and I will be suspended if it happens again. Thanks for the correction moderator, I deserve it. I've taken some time to evaluate my reasons for being here, the sites effect on me, and my possible effects on others. My reasons for being here still hold for me, I'm looking for fellowship that's a blessing to me and others. One of the effects on me of some of the threads here has been to stir up more than a little anger in me where I percieve deliberate and willfull attempts to bully people into being quite. In my anger I definately crossed the line and made personal attacks. My intent was to walk a thin line and defend some folks who were being bullied without going too far. I have no regrets as to my intentions, but I do regret calling certain people cowards, bulies, dishonest, manipulators, and accusing them of having cold hearted calculated intentions. I also asked PAW for more editing work to keep a thread from being deliberatly sidetracked. I don't regret that. It sounds like PAW is moving in that direction and I'm thankful for it, and it appears that my own words will not be exempted from that, that's how it should be. Another effect of this site on me I'll share is that the effects of having people share kind words with me in a certain way brings back some painful memories of people and family that I've lost. It's nobodie's fault here, it's just that a very dangerous and overbearing church leader has painfully removed everybody that was close to me, and kicked me out of the church. These events started happening about eight years ago and were culminated by losing my wife and child four years ago. I tried to get with a church with a prison ministry focus after that, but the doctrinal differences that I was honest about, to the point of promising that I would not promote them were too much for this pastor. In spite of the fruit in people's lives that was becoming evident he decided he had to stop me from working with him in the ministry because of the doctrinal differences, and I was in no mood to be boxed in again by another man, so I left. In a way it was just as heartbreaking as what happened with my family and the first group I told you about. Nothing with the more mainline denominations has been any better since. Ever since I've been looking for something to hold on to, but there's been a lot of loneliness, and a tremendous feeling of loss. And in many respects I'm not doing well. So I come here. It's plainly evident that while kind words here are very nice that they don't replace the good friends and family that I've lost. No matter how good these words here can be, it's just not the same as face to face. And sometimes the possibilities of friendships that might be but probably will never really happen are some of the most painful feelings I've ever felt. It's nobodies fault, it's just the limitations of this medium of communication. I don't know what tomorrow wil bring, but I'm coming to terms with the limitations of this site, both in terms of how agressive I can be with people and how much I can expect from it.

The group that kicked me out after removing my wife and child from my life, just before the elder that I worked for fired me has tried real hard to cover their tracks. I say that the leader spit on people twice that I know of. I say he said the words "If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be in prison" three times in the weeks preceding my expungment, and he said it before the whole church. I say that about two months after 9-11 he said that we would be attacked by the locals or the government and if we wanted to stand with him on God's Word we'd better be prepared to die. Two weeks before he kicked me out he went into hiding, only carefully groomed people knew where he was at any given time, and they were taught not to let on if they knew or did not know. One week before he kicked me out he gave a completely bogus teaching that supposedly proved that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. EVERY TIME I'VE RELATED EVENTS, I'VE BEEN AWARE THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO COME AFTER ME IF THEY COULD. In the few years since this all happened I've shared several events with the local folks that weren't slander, I really felt that the locals needed to know exactly what was going on behind that innocent looking and very deliberate public face. I BELIEVE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE COME AFTER ME IF ANY OF THE ABUSIVE, TWISTED BEHAVIOR I REPORTED WASN'T EXACTLY RIGHT. I suspect they've said thing behind my back too because that's how they operated inside the church. The methods they used were bullying, backbiting, isolation from others by whatever lie or half truth worked, and threats of loosing family. Those are just a few of their actions. To a biblical workman I can point out numerous dishonesties on their part, deliberate lies that people were bullied to believing. Once I was considered a bad person for telling a friend of mine that I thought he made a good decision to not give his retarded child up for adoption. The problem was that the leader tried to get my friend to give up his son. Of course I was further isolated and marginalised for that. I've never seen my friend since. My opinion of that leader is that in spite of his carefully groomed public apearance ,and manner thats extremely convincing is that he's a dishonest glory hound that will destroy anyone he can if it advances his influence. I don't believe honesty or integrity is part of his character. I believe he's driven by selfish ambition. He can make himself seem like a M.O.G. and be very convincing though, so he's extremely dangerous. IT'S SEEMS LIKE I'VE DEALT WITH YOUR KIND BEFORE POND, WHITE DOVE, AND BUMPY. That opinion I hold based on years of dealing with people whose twisted "Godly, so called" agenda made it all to easy to set aside decency, gentleness, and compassion. Frankly, they are a lot better at it than the three of you though. You're actually a little boring in comparison. I've met people that really are like you make rascal and potato out to be, and I'm real darn sure that you're the ones with the problem, not them.

Hi guys, I only have time for one post today. Here goes, White Dove, Pond, & Bumpy; You are the worst kind of cowards. You're accusing abuse victims of making s--- up. Go ahead and tell us who you really are, like you want the abuse victims to. Show us that you're at least trying to be as brave as they have to be to keep living sometimes. Insult all you want imaginary tiger, you are the coward here. WHO ARE YOU GUYS? CAN YOU AT LEAST TRY TO BE REAL?

Boy oh boy, you guys sure aren't as brave as you want the victims to be!! So far you seem to be exactly what I thought you were. I think now that you're capable of trying to try to trick your way out of this trap that you're own big mouths sprung on you. I do not think you're capable of the honesty that you ask of others. Any response you give now will require you to verify the truth of it, because I judge that you are the guilty accuser. Go ahead you jerks, verify who you are. I still might share who I am just to prove that you're inexcusable cowards. PAW AND EVERYONE, COULD WE JUST LET THIS SIT HERE FOR A WHILE TO PROVE THEIR COWARDICE. I'D HATE TO SEE THIS GEM OF A POINT BURIED. BUT AS YOU PLEASE, I MAKE NO DEMANDS ON Y'ALL.

How about it pond, white dove , and the one that's imaginary and full of stuffing? How credible are you? I think not very! You despise the victims' annonymity! Put up or shut up. I'm down with it, how about you bullies. Let's dance, let's make it real. I have nothing better to do with my life.