JeffSjo

Dear Excathedra, Personally, I hope that I'm not wearing you out. I'd rather see you blessed and refreshed. Hi Sweetpotato, it's been a while. THIS DANCE SURE SEEMS LIVELY TODAY

For me, this is a worst case scenario for this situation. DO WHAT THEY SAY, NOT WHAT THEY DO. The Lord dealt with these issues two thousand years ago and His standards are still the best that I know of. For me, I really do strive to the truth in anyone's statements, no matter what I think of them. The King Josiah (I believe) died because he didn't listen to Pharoah when Pharoah happened to be speaking the truth. I've been surprised when a child in a cabinet shop I was working in happened to say, "Why don't you do it like this....." Not forgiving "CAN" turn to bitternes. Actions "CAN" invalidate the message. Maybe every situation's different.

Hi T-Bone, All day I've been hoping you didn't fire back by calling WhatTheHey "Bonehead" or something similar. I didn't want some good discussion buried beneath pages of pointless name calling and recriminations. Isn't namecalling a bit out of step with stated website policy? I was glad that yesterday I limited myself to simply implying cussing at a stupid movie and a heartless point.

Hi Twinky, This is how it worked for me with my one project cat. I made it through the long haul with her. She was more dear to me than any other pet I ever had except maybe my childhood dog. If you make it through the long haul with them I'm guessing it'll be good for you too. Hang in there Twinky, or do what you need to do with them. I guess it's your call.

I know what you mean Rascal. Facing hard truths are difficult in a lot of things. I guess we all face it in different things at any given time. Rightly divided scripture unmasks the hateful behavior. THIS ISN'T A STUPID %$&*^ING MOVIE.

Hi Rascal, It's allways a pleasure. For me, my Christian responsibility is to do both. It seems it would be easier to assign the whole matter to the scrap heap. But I can't do that with a clear conscience. I've mentioned that I believe the Lord will set fire to it, and the stuff that remains will be left. In my own little brain I need to do the same thing. I'm not condemming you though, I like a lot about your posts, I meant it. With respect: JEFF

I am not amused, I am horrified by the people who have been hurt. I am horrified that people were hurt and that families were ruined. I am horrified that a ministry that started with the more abundant life ended up stealing, killing and destroying. I am horrified at the future prospects of one who would willingly choose to mock some people who were hurt so bad that all they can taste of the meal of God's Word is dust and ashes. I'm going to give them a break if it takes them some time (even if it's years) to come back to an even keel. I'm going to do my best to hold on to the good and not kick the wounded.

Hi Oldiesman, As one who's shared openly about my intentions I think anyone would need to get honest about the evil to be able to withdraw from it. So the category you mentioned I don't consider as an inbetweener, but more of a subset of Rascal,s first category. I don't mean to quibble, I really wanted to just throw my two little cents in. Besides, I don't think I've ever responded to one of your posts before.

Hi WhatTheHey, This is interesting, for me you become much easier to understand when you get a little riled. At least you sound a little riled and a little clearer to me. "SOMETIMES THE LOVE OF GOD ISN'T A PAT ON THE BACK, IT'S A LITTLE LOWER AND A LITTLE HARDER" When leaders sins are allowed to run unchecked, the results are much more devastating than when others sin. Feel free to quote me. God's boot to the rear then becomes even harder. "It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

Hi Rascal, I'm glad that you're feeling better now. I'll have to consider the rest though?! That's all I can tell you right now.

Hi OklahomaCityWOW78, This is what it is in my mind very simply: IT IS A GOOD WORK THAT'S GONE TERRIBLY WRONG. Hi mstar1, I suppose that depends on the specific doctrine in question. For instance if it's the twisted doctrine that allows leadership to"lord it over the Lord's inheritance" it is directly related. If it's simply pointing out that nowhere in the bible is there a specific commandment to believe in the trinity, so I'm not. Then I don't consider the doctrine and the shipwreck directly related, even if others do.

Hi DON'TWORRYBEHAPPY, I'm glad you're posting on this thread because I've read another one of your posts where you shared about being intimidated by a gaurd dog. I've seen very similar intimidation tactics by another when the honest reports of people's behavior were viewed as a threat. Well, actually only when I was confronting abominable behavior, but that's my experience. You shared that Chris Geer was there and called ofF the dog, ( I wonder if he'd ever be able to share about the incident honestly though.) so I expect he'd be a possible resource for some honest feedback for the rest of us. Because as I've seen intimidation as a tactic from someone who presumed to be a spiritual man and a leader, I'm bound to give your sharing due credit. If I were in Chris Geers shoes and it happened the way you said I'd be wondering by now how come I let such terrible behavior slide without ever rejecting the inimidating behavior and then trying to take care of your heart. I've had my head up my "youknowwhat" sometimes too, but it always seems to come back to me later as, "How could have had my head so far up my youknowwhat?!" My best answer to your question to WTH is that the same Lord will judge both Paul's and DR. Wierwille's ministry. And I'll add for the sake of consideration that several people recieved revelation in the pages of the Bible and later sinned grievously. Even Paul pointed out that even if a minister's heart wasn't right he could still preach the Word, and he acknowledged that as something good, even though it seems plain to me that he didn't like the entire situation. As I count myself to be blessed by the ministry in the old days I just don't want to overstep my experience and go too far. I still remember that life changing moment when I believed Dr's exortation that I was going to heaven and all hell wouldn't stop me from getting there. Hi FRANK123LOL, Guilt can sure be a big factor in an abusive relationship, whether it's family, employment, or the church. If I was guilty of any of it ever the one I'd not want to have done is the abuse in HIS name. (supposedly) Hi HAM, I guess that sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, huh. If I read correctly, leadership should be the example of humility, not simply demanding humility in others as some kind of tin pot dictator. p.s. edited for spelling.

Hi T-Bone, I didn't know you were here, I'm glad you are. When I here about things like you describe but that I never saw the first thing that comes to mind is "Where were the watchmen!!!!!" I'd like to fellowship some more, but I've gotta go now. Take care and God Bless.

Hi Pond, I've been thinking about you saying "I can't do it" in relation to thinking no evil and thinking on the lovely things for a little bit this morning. I really want you to be able to do those things that are on your heart and are written plainly that you refer to. I'm going to consider these things some more. In regards to not offending anyone and ministering God's Word, we're suppose to learn to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But even if we grow into that there will allways be someone offended at the genuine movement of God's Word and/or the effects of that movement on people and/or the culture. Written records of this abound. I consider other things along with these things to help. Paul made a lot of waves, he said his hands were pure from the blood of all men.... (Acts 20:26,27) He was concerned about God's people and his duty more than simply "were they offended." Wow, now that I'm looking at it verses 28-30 are practically jumping off the page at me. Some folks need to be confronted, if you've ever been in a fight like that you'll remember. On top of all this, some take this kind of authority to themselves when they don't really have a clue and presume to run ministries even when they don't have God's people's best interests at heart. Others can think they're doing well, but only end up making it worse. Some start out good and end up turning to doing evil. I think that there have been people who did evil and then had a change of heart like the king Mannasseh. I'm glad that I believe the Lord will judge all things, because I am incapable of judging such a hodgepodge of truth and error. So I try not to get discouraged by all the differences, and hold onto the good from the old days. I have no plans to change my mind about that either. Even with all that, there are also a lot of offensive things written that were necessary reproof or rebuke. I HAVE NO DESIRE AT ALL TO RETHINK THE MISTAKES OF YEARS PAST EXCEPT AS IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL HURTING. For me this is the only valid reason to think about the mistakes at all, I can think of no other.

Hi What the Hey, I like that you want people to deal with past hurts honestly. I like that you want their hearts healed and not just bandaged. I agree with you about the effects of false and fruitless accusations, especially in regards to ones who can't defend themselves. I agree with you about believing that the Lord is the judge and jury, not me. I am no fan of bitterness either. But getting to the point of not being bitter is often a process, and it's just not effective to make "not bitter" a commandment. Criminal behavior deserves to be acknowledged as criminal. Likewise with adultery, mental abuse, bullying, or any other bad behavior. God's Word is very honest about these things. If wounded people are not allowed to talk about these things in an open and loving environment then the likelyhood of bitterness becoming a stumbling block for them is much higher, AND ANY EFFORT TO KEEP THE WOUNDED QUIET WILL MAKE THEM MORE BITTER. p.s. RASCAL, ARE YOU FEELING BETTER NOW? ( THIS PARAGRAGH ADDED IN EDITING) I am quite certain that wounded and hurting people are often accused of "bitterness" when it is not bitterness. Other options would be: Grieved, p.o.'d, in mourning, heavy hearted, depressed, etc. etc. I BELIEVE THAT IN GENERAL IN THIS THREAD THE TERM "BITTER" HAS BEEN OVERUSED.

Thanks for sharing OKLAHOMA CITY WOW 78, I'm just starting to learn my way around the keyboard too. If I understand you correctly, It's been very intense for you to get past some of the errors. It sounds like you've made a lot of progress, and I wish you the best.

Hi T-Bone, I've been considering the lockbox issue too. I've been comparing 1 Cor 5 with my recollection of the events in TWI and I conclude that all the immorality was not handled biblically. In that scripture Paul handled things very openly. In our times things were covered up. Paul cared for the man that sinned. In 2 Cor he made it clear that he didn't want this man swallowed up by too much sorrow, he wanted the Corinthians to handle it correctly, and he wanted this man to have a change of heart and come back to the fellowship. In our times some people that were not spiritual but were in leadership positions decided that a cover-up was the best strategy. A LITTLE LEAVEN HAS LEAVENED THE WHOLE LUMP. IT LOOKS TO ME THAT THE LORD HAS CAUSED THE SIN TO BE YELLED FROM THE ROOF TOPS. This is something that the Lord said would happen in the gospels. It has been very costly for me to endure, but I confronted the one who was building sin and delusion into the small splinter group that hurt me. When I read accounts like John Lynn's I think, "Thanks for nothing Colonel; you got a good, close look at the enemy and you didn't lay your life down for the Word's sake." I wonder if he even tried. I wonder if he even took a shot. (Speaking as a former Marine myself.) I wonder how many people let it slide. I wonder how many people did not lay down their lives for God's sake, and his peoples' sakes. The scriptures are clear on the topic. I believe it will all be clear when the Lord brings the hidden things to light. I still believe that many folks were blessed in the old days, and I will still acknowledge the good things. But " A LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LUMP, so I won't be surprised if people can't see the good.

Even if I had some great suggestions for you Twinky, they wouldn't amount to much more than patience and gentleness. The patience might need to be in terms of months though. I hope things go well with your kittens.

Dear Rascal and Excathedra, I think a lot of both of you. You've been willing to share a lot of bad experiences and taken heat for it and I support you 100%, as I believe this thread shows very plainly. (Don't worry about me going "but.....", because I wouldn't say that to you ever.) The vile acts you've described bring me to my knees in one sense, I have no good answer for you. These things that happened were vile and will be and have been judged by the Lord. I've taken heat for belonging to a cult, and believing things others did not even though they often had no good answer to the doctrinal points I was taught. I've been turned down for jobs because of the gossip that went along with being associated with TWI, even until today that's a painful reality to me. I'm not doing well alone in northern Wisconsin. In a small splinter group I had an abusive minister turn my wife's heart from me and she doesn't yet understand that my faults weren't worthy of the judgement, and likewise lost my boy too. She does not see that she was led to despise me and love a man who spits on people among other nasty things. I stayed with that group hoping and praying that they'd turn from the abusive style of leadership long after I knew they wouldn't turn, because I felt that if I had anything worthy to say to them that it was worth the risk of losing everything, because serving the Lord was more important than merely emerging unscathed. I must say, I am very scathed. I live like a refugee now and have a long way to go to get well. In a denominational church since then I was blacklisted to some extent from other Christians by a man who considered my beliefs dangerous even though he refused to deal with me and my beliefs honestly. In this part of the country a little talk behind someone's back often goes a long way. These things have not turned me from believing in the Grace of God that was in the old days that I remember. But it looks painfully obvious to me that TWI leadership turned away from the Grace of God a long time ago. Otherwise people that I think highly of like you two; Excathedra and Rascal; would have been taken care of a long time ago. I HATE how you've been put through the ringer for simply telling your story. Things that were never suppose to be allowed to slide in the church at large apparently became deeply ingrained in TWI leadership and their refusal to be honest and/or have a change of heart has left multi-generational scars in many families. They have left many people bitter and dissolusioned and I am very grieved about it too. I still believe that the Grace of God was in the forming of the ministry. It's no easy thing to determine whether or not a man is simply overtaken in a fault and refuses to confess his sin or was at the beginning a wolf in sheep's clothing. The Lord knows, but I don't. There is one verse that speaks of not judging certain things until that day the Lord himself judges, that's not much too share with you two compared with the things you two have shared, but it's all I've got, and I don't blame you two if it's not enough for you. 1 Cor 4:5 But the same epistle speaks of the necessity of putting out another person because of certain sexual perversity. (As always, I ask for your patience because scripture is the only way that I can often talk of these things. I hope the rest of you can appreciate the sentiment even if you don't appreciate the scripture.) I'm glad we can talk about it though Excathedra and Rascal. These are a few of the things on my heart. I've gotta go, I don't know when I'll be able to get back here to fellowship with you all but it might be a while, take care and God Bless.

Hi Rascal, It's always a pleasure. Biblically, leadership doesn't get more sin ignored by the Lord, they get a stricter judgement. That may be for the very reasons you're speaking of. As a human being, in my own struggles I know the "hook" that sin can plant in my heart, that's not an excuse, it's just the way it is. I can understand a person getting hooked, but I don't have to like what I see. I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, and that's all that I can say on that. My more recent experiences have sensitized me to the effects that leadership's sin can have on biblical integrity. For me that's the hardest pill to swallow because I believe biblical integrity could have cured the disease. I know that this isn't the doctrinal section but as we're discussing TWI it can't be ignored either. I may never know intimate details, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of good people were either cowed into shutting up or were kicked out if they didn't shut up. (The last paragraph I added by editing)

Good point Coolchef. Without love I don't think we have anything that's ever good in any of us. With love a lot of things become good. Thanks for the good point TheHighWay. I saw good in my days in TWI. I've seen some very bad things in the small splinter group that came after TWI for me.

Hi everyone, I've been thinking some more about the "what if I was there," would I have fallen into the sin question since yesterday. One thing that I'm thinking is that it's really impossible for me to say for sure, many people throughout history have found out that when the heat is on that they were capable of more evil than they would have ever dared admit. Just talk to some good christian people that lived in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's and you'll see how hard this struggle can be. So I've been thinking why expound on that line of thinking at all. One possible answer is that if the only man that never sinned throughout history understands temptation so should I. Another possible answer is that even though someone's hurt badly, when they're ready it may be good to get past demonizing the villain of the drama. I don't blame the wounded for being mad, but eventually we must come to the place where we can recognize any human frailty as something that we all share in to some extent. It seems to me a healthy place to be able to get to anyway. I could share some things from my life that would indicate that it would be possible for me to have sunk pretty low. I could share some things that would indicate that I never have sunk so low, even though I have sinned. Never been with a married woman; I have been with single, willing women. I generally am violently opposed to abuse even though I remember times when I was a big jerk in my marriage. etc. etc. We all share in shortcomings, we're human. The Lord himself will judge all things. (Please bear with me y'all, it's the only way I know to deal with these issues.) I have no desire to smear anyones reputation, but if it means really helping one hurting individual then the reputation will have to be set aside for loves sake. The living are the only ones to help, the dead are the Lord's to judge. Personally speaking, I am capable of being thankful for a man that helped me, even if he may have hurt others. Don't we all do that for those who we care about, I think so. The only good thing that I know to do in this circumstance is to help and show compassion to the wounded. LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY! I really don't want to be a false accuser either.