JeffSjo

I've heard it said that a picture is worth a thousand words. Which thousand are you refering to Waysider? (added in editing) Thanks Waysider, it's clear to me now. That is the reason I don't hold the abused responsible for being abused. The abuser is to be blamed, the abused are to be helped. It seems to be far short on the compassion department when someone simply blames the one that is like a little child ( biblically a metaphor in 1john) for the abuse of the fathers.

When the blind lead the blind into a ditch, they're both in the ditch. Personally, I'm more perturbed at the leaders though, especially when they promote themselves as having all the answers. (added in editing) I don't know everything you refer to about your family oldies, I hope you and Rascal can get it worked out.

I don't have PM capability at this public internet access that I know of Oldies. If I do, I don't have a clue how to activate it. That works for me though, pretty much everything about me is already public domain here on this site Oldies.

Looking back for me, I remember thinking of the Corps in the best possible terms. When I took PFAL in 1982 I thought of the Corps in the terms that it was promoted in. Well equipped ambassadors going where they needed to go in service to God, or something to that effect. I like to think that Corps vets would be the best equipped to handle tough issues, even the ones that come up on this site. But when the reality of where some of Corps vets may be living sink in it's easy to give up on the ideas that were promoted about the Corps in the face of overwhelming reality. Some have said they were trained to be proffessional idolaters even. Even as a young believer it was apparent that some individuals allowed the Way Corps training to "puff them up" to use the biblical term. Now it's apparent that the problems ran far deeper and more disgusting than simply being puffed up. I like the idea of a Way Corps. The "corps" that was made up of some of the younger folks in my small splinter group I fear won't end up well. That teacher epitomises many of the faults that some of you speak of here. Biblical compromise, self serving leadership, biblically justified servitude, etc. etc. It breaks my heart to think of how far the reality of many aspects of TWI were BELOW the ideal standards that I can't help but still hold to as good things. P.S. Oldies, sometimes when Rascal talks about family she jusy means spiritual family. (added in editing) Personally I like it that she takes it personally when refering to spiritual family, especially when they've been hurt. How far out of step on the "not getting personal" requirement I am!

That is a very good joke.

Thank you very much Wordwolf!!!!! I've gotta go once again and I have no idea when I'll get back. But I really do miss the fellowship when I cannot get back.

It's interesting to me that you clarified by saying "the whole lump of leadership". In 1st Corinthians it doesn't say leadership. I think the real effects of the leaven being allowed to continue is very much more devastating than simply confining it to leadership. I empathise with you about acknowledging that the stories may be incomplete or worse, but the thing that's made me mad here is when someone is attacked or put down for simply sharing what happened to them. Those type of bullies are something that I've had entirely too much exposure to and I will do my best to not tolerate that here or anywhere else. It's painfull to me that the ones who are doing the bullying are often the ones who claim to be trying to remember the good like I do. I know that it's not a good thing to focus completely on injustice, it just makes life harder than it already is. But for someone who's been hurt badly, I think it's almost always bad to be hard on them. Job's comforters did not do a good thing either. In general I have issues with some of the abundance of accusations on this site, and I think I probably could argue that some are false accusations. But I'd rather not accuse one hurting person of being a liar or worse. Why would I would argue a point that doesn't do anyone any good. I think that maybe when the time is right that I might be able to help someone get past these things. In the mean time I think it'll do more good to allow folks to read it all and consider the whole matter than to beat down any opposing viewpoint.

Hi Oldiesman, I don't see you on the forum home page, are you one of those who don't show that you're here? Personally, I tend to get a lot more grieved by injustice when I see it up close. The history books are hard to get personal about. Even current events on the news are hard to relate to closely, but when people I know have been hurt, or I can relate to it myself I can get more emotional. When the Lord himself rewards all the murderors, I'm not too certain that those with a little blood on their hands will be treated better than those with a lot of blood on their hands. (edited for spelling)

Hi Mike, To get to the bottom of it we'd need to be able to document the source and intentions behind the TVT's. I don't believe we're able to prove much of anything about that at this point. I do believe that according to God's Word that the Lord Jesus Christ knows the truth and will punish them. I'll throw this point out for consideration though. TVT's that covered up wicked and lewd behavior, and then continued to ruin folk's lives for years eventually are bound to GREIVE GOD himself, it's inevitable. The prospects for those responsible are not pleasant, Dr. Wierwille himself mentioned the Lord "taking it out of their hides" in "The Passing of a Patriarch." Since the events in our times were not handled with the same wisdom and Love that the apostle Paul walked in it is inevitable that the WHOLE LUMP is leavened.

PRIDE, GREED, AND LUST HAVE DESTROYED THE EFFECTS OF THE GOOD IN AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE RASCAL. In both themselves and those who fought the good fight with a clear conscience.

What do you mean by TVT Mike?

In my little splinter group that I've spoken of often I see fairly clearly how things got so bad. In the earlier days there were things that I was concerned about, but I gave the leader the benefit of the doubt. Looking back on it it's very clear that long before I was kicked out the leader left being one of the rest of us far behind and both allowed himself to become exhalted and even promoted it. When I was kicked out nobody could say a word against him without being treated with hatred, and that hatred was carefully cultivated in the believers over years of tightly controlled fellowship. Some of the means were more subtle, simply carrying out the old rod and carrot method of training. In my case, I openly spoke of crappie biblical workmanship and brutally behaving leadership. The only thing that was left for them to do was to do their best do destroy my life, and I also am refering to twisting every knife ( a reference to mental abuse), and not just removing my family from me. It's clear to me now that someone who's totally committed to being in control is capable of years of carefully building their influence over a group of people (desensitising) and destroying anyone who they deam as a threat. And even worse they're capable of hiding their intentions behind a lot of bible.

Hi again Rascal, it's allways a pleasure, even if it's been a while. This is a great topic and I'm glad that you started it. I think you know that while I continue to believe that the grace of God existed in TWI I also believe that the grace of God was perverted beyond recognition, especially in regards to the many things you speak of that I think continue to need to be said. The methods of destroying people that you speak of are not unique to TWI history, even today one needs to look no farther than how North Koreans are taught to relate to their leader. Those that speak ill of him do so at their own peril. Same with communist China, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Khazakstan, and any number of countries in the world. Why in U.S. politics any number of smear tactics that tend to destroy people's reputations are commonplace. Throughout history within so-called Christianity there have been many dangerous and perverse things done, but then God's Word said they'd happen nearly two thousand years ago, I'm wondering why should we be surprised. People turning the grace of God into unrestrained lust, decievers, false prophets, and false Christ's were written of as already existing when the scriptures were written. And what was said was that it would only get worse. I AM VERY THANKFUL THAT YOU'VE CONTINUED TO NOT BEING BULLIED INTO BEING QUIET. I think that if any of these guys had any sense they'd see that with all the terrible mistakes that were made back in the day, the only way any of you would believe in the grace of God in TWI is if you saw the grace of God that used to be in TWI. In the mean time I don't like the bullying that goes on around here, especially when the unfortunate bullying is done by those who speak of the grace of God. BULLYING - BAD HELPING- GOOD DUUUUUUHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I'm not certain, but this posting may prove to serve as my good bye to you, dear friends of mine. Things are at a crisis point in my life and there is much that I've fallen behind on that are real and personal obligations of mine. I'm not certain I'll have gas money to get to the computer any more, and my debts are very real. I may be required to do some emergency relocating since I can't pay my bills for lack of work. I'm sorry friends, it's not pretty, but so it is for me today. The house is cold and it's winter out there. AS FAR AS GOD'S WORD, MY CONSCIENCE IS CLEAR. It's cost me a lot though, your prayers will perhaps mean a lot to me, God knows for sure. posted from the library with real tears friends, good bye and take care.

DON'T BE TOO HARD ON THE MAN WHO FALLS, FOR IF WE HAD BEEN IN HIS SHOES???????? (Sorry about the double post,I'm going to edit in some more sharing here now.) I hope it's clear to all of you that I have no desire to slam TWI because my years with TWI were good to me. I've seen much uglier things lately, and they fit very neatly with the things that are being shared here as having happened to them with TWI. I cannot ignore that the real events in my little splinter group are very nearly the same as many of you share about with TWI. I am soooooo sick and tired of some people being hard on people whose lives were devestated and/or destroyed as a result of their time in TWI. If you only could see me face to face you would understand that the anger that I feel is not a joking matter. Simply saying "forgive" doesn't even come close to dealing with how I feel when I see people who have suffered so badly. It often feels overly simplistic and frankly very unrealistic to simply say forgive them in the face of such unrepentant and unrelenting effort to destroy peoples lives. Those of you who ask people to forgive them are simply serving to silence the neccessary telling of the truth of the matter. Please people, choose compassion. Please people, choose to be quiet instead of mocking some of God's people who have been hurt to the core. I'M TELLING YOU, IF YOU HAD ANY CLUE HOW IT FEELS TO PRESSED WAY BEYOND WHAT YOU THOUGHT YOU COULD BEAR, YOU WOULD HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THOSE WHO WERE DRIVEN AS FAR AS SUICIDE. And you would understand how I feel about your pithy, cold hearted, judgments that are all too easy since things happened to come out a little better for you.

DON'T BE TOO HARD ON THE MAN WHO FALLS, FOR IF WE HAD BEEN IN HIS SHOES???????? This is some of what I've percieved in my life in the last several years. In my small splinter group that left me in a position to have a lot of compassion on the one that Ham speaks of I've seen a few bad things. I've seen a man willing to take credit for everything good and portay everyone else as bad simply to mantain total and complete control. I've seen people who were absolutely willing to set people up to trip over their own shortcomings when they might have helped them to stand instead. I saw a ministry that was completely willng to strip everything of value away from a person and leave them broke, broken hearted, and completely alone. Then have the gall to claim that the reason that they were able to destroy the broken one is that they carry such enormous spiritual authority. IMO I see a sociopath willing to justify any evil as long as he ends up looking victorious. Since my days with the splinter group I've had to endure the judgment of the more mainline Christians who seem to feel that my bad situation proves that the Lord is not with me. Or they are willing to count me as a heretic who holds to dangerous beliefs even though they provide me no remedy as far as correct doctrine goes. It seems to me that if the Lord counts me as his brother then what he'll percieve is how they all treated His brother, how else would the Lord say so looking forward to that great day still coming. I feel for the scripture to be true then his brethren must sometimes endure hunger, thirst, false imprisonment, and other undeserved evils. As of late, I'm keeping a very close watch on my situation, and it's not good.Much of that is my own weakness. I'm a 46 year old man who suffered years of ministerial abuse then was kicked to the curb alone, without friends or my family, and I'm usually feeling beaten, bloodied, and too weak to put up much of a fight anymore. And in my low estate I am a little afraid of what the future holds for me and my son. Now some of you it would seem would be willing to say, I'm getting what my believing deserves. I'm telling you that God's people have often been treated worse than me. Sometimes it has brought them to suicide as several here know for a truth. I often wonder about will I even make it to the point of getting delivered before I give up on looking to God for deliverance. The past 25 years of my life seem to paint a pretty ugly picture. TO THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK BADLY OF THE WOUNDED AND WEAK I WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER SCENARIO TO CONSIDER. Some of God's people rest in their needs being met today, and judge the hungry and tired as weak and somehow deserving of their fate. God looks at this situation and see's that those who actually have the means to give would rather take vacations in the south-seas or somewhere than help their breteren who've had a real rough time of it. At the very least, don't those of you have plenty today understand that you will be judged by how you treat the neady? Don't you see that if you condemn the neady, the Lord will condemn you? THIS IS NOT A HARD TOPIC TO SEE IN THE SCRIPTURE, IT'S A HARD THING TO FIND COMPASSION IN A SO-CALLED BROTHER SOMETIMES THOUGH.

Sorry ham, but what's that? (Mr. Hammeroni was fun)

Hi Rascal, While you were responding to WTH I edited my last post, I just don't want you to miss it. (edited to stay on topic) I gladly forgive the Rev. Chris Geer if he did say the stupidest thing by a human being ever, even if it isn't technically the STUPIDEST I gladly forgive him and hold no grudge.

IS IT A GRUDGE TO....... Remember years of abuse by a selfishly ambitious minister? Remember how it felt to have my wife and child moved out of my house behind my back? Remember that they then moved her in behind my back again, then tried to move her out behind my back again, just to see if I'd break? Remember being kicked out of that group in spite of not being guilty of sin worthy of being kicked out? Remember how it felt to have one of these supposed ministers verbally assault me by repeatedly telling me to f--- my recently deceased grandmother in front of my wife? Remember years of being put down whether I was right or wrong (I was often correct) because one man desires the preeminence? Remember that it now appears that many children will learn to be the same kind of liar and spin-doctor as their corrupt teacher? Remember a lot of the scummy things they did to me and others? THEN THE APOSTLE JOHN MUST HAVE BEEN SINNING WHEN HE WROTE III John verse 10 I WILL REMEMBER THESE THINGS, AND SHARE THEM WHENEVER I MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP SOMEONE BY DOING SO!!!!!

Hi Socks, I hope my use of the term "moral outrage" doesn't weaken the point either. When I think about these issues I don't think of the term "moral outrage". I think of cusswords. I think of word like scummy, degenerate, vile, repulsive, abusive, repugnant, abominable, leacherous, despicable, etc. etc. If it would make the point better in this discussion I'd gladly replace the phrase " moral outrage" with any other that communicates better. (added in editing) Now that I'm thinking about it I am flabergasted and amazed that Chris Geer said that no one could make a "BIBLICAL" case for change of TWI. Don't get me wrong because plenty of folks here know many more details than me, but at least that's a little indication that at least someone was interested in change. Here was TWI going to hell-in-a-handbasket and no one could make a case for change. I try real hard not to get worked up, but NOBODY COULD MAKE A BIBLICAL CASE FOR TWI TO CHANGE? What kind of convuluted, retarded kind of logic was at work there? NOBODY COULD MAKE A BIBLICAL ARGUMENT FOR TWI TO CHANGE? I'VE HEARD SOME STUPID THINGS BEING SAID IN MY LIFE, BUT THAT IS ABOUT THE MOST INFURIATINGLY STUPID THING I'VE EVER HEARD. Who was handling God's Word those days? Couldn't they figure out that it's biblically correct to get rid of the minister-rapists? How about the minister-abusers? How about it being biblically correct to get rid of the minister-adulterors? IF ANYONE WAS SERIOUSLY LOOKING FOR A BIBLICAL CASE FOR TWI TO CHANGE AND THEY COULD NOT FIND IT ....... I'M SORRY EVERYONE, THAT' SIMPLY THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!!!!! (Straight sacasm here as I mock those leaders here) God's Word Has everything YOU need for life and Godliness, but we can't figure out how to make a biblical case to change the ministry. So we're going to go full steam ahead straight into the freaking toilet and take as many of you followers down with us as we can. Don't break ranks anyone, look not to the right hand or the left. Just go straight into the toilet, don't question your leadership either. I'M REALLY GLAD THAT YOU SHARED THAT SOCKS, BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST MOMENT IN MY LIFE I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR CHRIS GEER, AND IF HE SAID WHAT YOU SAY HE DID THEN HE DOESN'T DESERVE ANY RESPECT UNTIL HE OPENLY AND HONESTLY COMES TO TERMS WITH ONE OF THE ALL TIME STUPIDEST THINGS SAID BY A HUMAN BEING EVER. That's enough from me now, I trust that my opinion is clear enough on this matter.

Hi JEAST and welcome, I hope the fellowship here is a blessing for you.

Dear Oldiesman & Jonny Lingo, I hope you both see that I have much in common with the two of you. If either or both of you disagree I still feel that way. I think Rascal is being reasonable when she acknowledges that she is willing to be quiet if necessary. I think that there is a lot of good to be done to hurting folks if they hear that people are mad about the abusive behavior. I think that it may even be more important for those who are out there that actually were snookered into supporting these behaviors that these bad behaviors are to be DESPISED. I support Rascal's moral outrage. Like I said before, (or close anyway) more moral outrage might have done some good. How else might we have reqired God's Word from leadership except through confrontation and exposing the sin. Cover-up and lies hasn't done anyone any good, I hope you two see that cover-up and lies aren't biblical or Godly at least, the moral outrage is much better. Frankly I find MORE PRESUMPTION in the attitude of "forgive and forget." I wish it were otherwise but there is too much good information being presented to assume that the Lord would want it covered-up. Both Rascal and I have mentioned the yelling from the housetop reference, that certainly is biblical and a whole other option as to how these isues should be handled. A lot of testimony here points to the very real possibility that this was an organized campaign to abuse God' people. A lot of the testimony here points to the real possibility that not only has the Lord not forgiven these sins, but that some people are going to have it "taken out of their hides" by the Lord in that great day coming. Under these circumstances I find Rascal's Moral outrage to be more upright than all the attempts to keep her quiet. Some of these attempts have been honest concern I know, but some of these attempts have seemed less than honest too. For what it's worth you two seem honest to me.

Thank you very much for the reference anotherDan. Thanks for the response Brideofjc, It's interesting to me that you seem to have figured out a way to be cautious and reasonable about the extra-canonical writings while others totally reject anything but the King James bible and it's sometimes imperfect translation. Try telling a fundamentalist that the King James stole about half of what William Tyndale translated and the other half they managed to make worse. I shared that opinion of mine and got quite a reaction too. (edited for spelling)

DEAR EXCATHEDRA, Sure, I was just thinking about you and how you've been hurt. I've been hurt too, in a different manner and for different reasons. I ended up thinking about the disciples on the road to Emmaus and how down hearted they were about their current events. They had been expecting better too. Then all of the sudden they met this man who opened up the scriptures for them and showed them why these evil things had happened, and their hearts were lit on fire. (The good fire of course) It was the risen Lord Jesus Christ taking care of their hearts!!!!! And in another post you said you were hoping he could explain it someday. Dear Excathedra, he will explain it someday even according to the scriptures. Then he'll wipe away our tears. Then he'll make it o.k. Then he'll reveal the darkness hidden in mens' hearts and we will all have praise in God. I'm sorry I was running out of time the other day. It didn't leave me time to share what was on my heart, just a little scripture reference. He wasn't even born with sin and he suffered worse than either of us. I'm thinking he's qualified to take care of your dear heart Excathedra. DEAR RASCAL, I'm relieved and angry at the same time. I'm relieved that even as this evil happened that there were good people that stood up to it. I'm not entirely sure by your post if you were at this meeting or if you were just told about it, but I understand the threats and the attempt to keep it quite. I am angry that the evil happened in spite of the warnings, it makes it without excuse and the things that happened are in the category of deliberate evil, and not just simply being overcome in a fault. At least they've been warned though. (HEB 10:26-31) UNFORGIVEN SIN IN REALITY, not just in theory. I wish that some of your critics here would realise it might be that the only reason they do not share in your moral outrage is because at TWI people were systematically desensitized and trained to let these things slide. They still live in this nasty little mindset that they were led into and don't realize that widespread moral outrage is a just response to people being destroyed. Moral outrage is better then lemming mentality. I'll follow you off the cliff. Hey you, yelling about the cliff, SHUT UP. You not being spiritual or gentle or kind to my leader. You are possesed. be quiet about this cliff. the rules have changed after all. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH I'M FALLING AAAAHHHH AAAHHH AAHH AAH AH AH AH

Dear Rascal, I think that if in the right time and the right place the "innies" had shown a fraction of your outrage that maybe the shipwreck wouldn't have ever happened. Dear Excathedra, I've been thinking of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, I hope it'll help to think of that. I am now being required to get off the computer. Gotta go, God Bless.