JeffSjo

I know that this topic comes up here often, and many of you know more TWI history than I do, but I've been considering this matter for a long time and would like to bounce some of my thoughts off you all and see what you might give me for feedback. At present I DO NOT CONSIDER DR. WIERWILLE A PLAGARIST as many of you do. But it is clear to me that at the very least he borrowed heavily from many people. (Bullinger, Leonard, Pillia, etc. etc.) FOR ME TO CONSIDER SOMEONE TO BE A PLAGARIST I HAVE TO BE SURE OF SOMEONE'S MOTIVES. Even when the motives of a preacher's heart is wrong, the preaching of God's Word can still be a good thing. *Phill 1: 15-18 I think that God's Word is so good, that even if somebody is a bad preacher, God Himself can still bring good out of the events and help sort it all for those who need to sort it all out. I also think that the act of sorting it all out will be a long and dirty job in reference to TWI. When I think of the events in the 1940's and after that lead to the PFAL classI still am inclined to give DR. WIERWILLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AS TO HIS INTENTIONS. If I had borrowed heavily from teachers and then had them turn on me because of differences of beliefs (ie. No trinity, the dead being dead....) I definitly would turn my students away from those who I borrowed from. Under those circumstances it's only common sense. I've heard enough over the years to believe since the old days that Dr. Wierwille was somehow hurt by his contemporaries. Whether he was justified in feeling that way or not I'm not sure, but I am convinced that he felt that way because I remember how he referred to them. I AM NOT SO WELL VERSED IN MINISTRY HISTORY THAT I CAN SAY FOR SURE THAT THAT'S NOT HOW IT WENT DOWN. I consider it a safe position to hold in not being too quick to judge the things that concern Dr. Wierwille and his contemporaries. The things that I believe from B.G. Leonard came to me through Dr. Wiewille. I never heard of B.G. Leonord, Stiles, or any of them complain about it. That I would have to listen to intently. __________HISTORICAL RECORDS THAT I CONSIDER ON THIS MATTER__________ William Tyndale borrowed very heavily from Luther's introduction to the book of Romans when he published his New Testament. I do not think it was plagarism for him to not credit Luthor, I think they both understood the need at that time and were in agreement. At that time in England the words "Luther" and "Lutheran" were practically cuss words and if William Tyndale would have used Luther's name many people would never have read the New Testament. I cannot prove that they were in agreement, but I never heard of Luther complaining about it. Before William Tyndale published his second printing another man (I forget his name) printed a new testament and put William Tyndale's name on it. When William Tyndale printed his second edition in 1537 (I think, this is all off the top of my head today folks) he complained that this other edition with his name on it had very bad translations in it, and some of the translations had no basis in truth and they were dangerously misleading. I'm not certain if I'd call this New Testament that was incorrectly called "Tyndale's" plagarism or not, but it was not honest to say the least. If this man sold copies then it was certainly criminal IMO. The commity that produced the "King James Version" borrowed heavily from Tyndales translation and then never mentioned his name in the introduction. In that introduction there was only one indirect and insulting reference to Tyndale that I could find, and it didn't use his name. I consider that a type of plagarism and the reasons they didn't credit Tyndale was because they wanted people to not walk as Tyndale walked, but they wanted people to follow what they said. They were a committee that was committed to walking the middle ground between the papists and the more revolutionary protestants of that time. I CONSIDER THESE HISTORICAL REFERENCES TO BE STANDARDS BY WHICH I JUDGE THIS MATTER. I'm sure many of you are aware of many others, and I'd be happy to consider any others that may shed some light on the topic. (added in editing) These things have been going on for a long time. I believe that the Lord will judge all mens' work taking into account the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Maybe this should be in the "about the way" section, I suppose it can be moved if need be.

Hi Paw, I'd be happy to use amozon if it helped you and this site. I don't have the means to do so right now, but I will, if and when I can.

Congadulations on the book Eyesopen, I hope things go well for you. It is a big topic that you've picked and I hope that people are blessed too.

Even if it's a good key, it still has to be applied to the point at hand with some wisdom to open up any understanding. IMHO What "better understanding" are you talking about What The Hey.

I'm just bringing this to the front for nyunknown.

Thank you for sharing Jeast!!!!! It does my heart good to hear of the blessings that you're thankful for. GOD is good. Your sharing seems like a full meal. Desert is a good call.

The "IDEAL" type of toughening up that WhiteDove is refering to is o.k. The experiences of many of the rest of you speak to "toughen up!!" being used as a control method designed to keep you going in the same direction without questioning what's being done to you. At the worst that I've seen it, it was done by men with ungodly intentions who simply wanted to abuse you as much as they could before you were either used up or burnt out. This really isn't an uncommon thing. I think it's a common issue in abusive families, multilevel marketing, etc. I think that it's possible that it can be said inside of the love of God, but was most often simply perpetuating the abuse.

Happy birthday Watered Garden, I hope I can read your posts until your next one at least.

Thanks Randy, But I am not acting about anything. I don't have anything bad to say about your walk. I do not believe that classifying these folks as a "waste of time" proves anything except your own issues. (edited for spelling)

Thanks for this Paw. I'm listening now.

Aaaawwwww Cman The pictures are really grab ya, don't they? :)

Randy Honey, I'm very certain that there is a lot more to the trainwreck that was The Way International than you've been told. I think that a lot of the folks here have seen parts of it. A lot of these topics are not pleasant. I'm listening. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

I am really thankfull for you living history lessons!!

I'm no fan of talking smack either Randy. But since I've had a biblically compromised liar tear away my wife and child for me in a small splinter group I don't talk smack about other people who've been broken up either. A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAY IS JUST TALKING SMACK ABOUT MANY PEOPLE HERE TOO! If you do some more reading you might find that the folks here have a lot more going for them than you think. You may find that you don't have any buisness at all questioning some of these folks about what they've done and that you are the one who's just shooting off your mouth. (added in editing) Believe it or not, I sympathise with what you've said. Since I've been here I haven't let some people who think the way you do bully some of these people without withstanding them, that's all.

Hi Judyb, It's nice to meet you. I hope things go well for you here at Greasespot. This older thread fits some of the newer conversations here to a T and I'm glad you brought it to the front.

The best that I know to do is to stay nice and comfy at ground level. It's the smallest fall that I could possibly take at any time. P.S. I edited in some more serious thoughts for you in my last post T-Bone. P.P.S. I like your posts BRIDEOFJC, sometimes they're over my head because you speak in the same manner that you were educated in. I don't find you to be on a high horse to speak of, just honest about what you believe to be true and that doesn't intimidate me at all.

I believe a lot of what oldies says. I can relate to what Ham's saying. I've seen a supposed apostle that really is a purveyor of lies up close and personal like OCW speaks of. IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS A LOT TO SORT OUT FOR ME STILL.

So what's up with all this T-Bone? Have you decided to enjoy your shetland ride after all, or have you even supersized it ? :) :) :) ON A SERIOUS NOTE: I'm thankful for this thread T-Bone, I've been remembering and rethinking a lot of early days thinking that I did. If I new then what I knew now I would have put a life or death type of seriousness to proving the promise that God would teach doctor the Word Like it hadn't been known since the first century. It's either all true or all b.s. type thinking as opposed to just believing it without thinking about it more. There is a lot that I still hold to without hesitation.

If that's what they are in truth some folks will be hurt very badly.

Thanks Waysider, it sure does. I added my response to your editing in my editing.