JeffSjo

The issue that you're all discussing is interesting tro me. Here is my two-cents worth. I think that for believing the emphasis has to be on God, His Word, His direction to me. ( very personal that is) If HE wants ME to cast a mountain into the sea then so be it. If I'm wrong about it at any given time and place then my words to the mountain will be blown away like so much chaff. I think that if Dr. Wierwille would have said that "WISDOM works for saint and sinner alike" I would agree completely. At any rate, that's how I amend what I was taught in PFAL to make it work for me today.

That is a lot for me and I'm still chewing on it. One thing that seems clear ( thank you WordWolf) is that plagarism can simply be an uncredited reference to a public domain source. That in and of itself is pretty cut and dry. As concerning the whole line of thinking that Dr. knew some things before he read them in Bullinger, I have to admit that it is possible. I chose Apollos as my first choice for being "the writer of the book of Hebrews" long before I knew that William Tyndale and Martin Luthor believed the same thing. When I found that out, I was very happy to find that I arrived at the same conclusion independently of them and for pretty much the same reasons. ( In the doctrinal section I started a thread that discusses this topic and I also share that this particular point is not worth fighting about. ) The thing is that once I knew Tyndale's thinking on the subject I learned a lot from him by reading the things that he wrote on the same subject. It's very easy to see that if I wasn't very clear on the specifics that the line between what I thought up and what he wrote would be very thin. Even if it's clear to me and I'm clear in my communication I could see where someone would be able to accuse me of plagarising Tyndale's ideas. How would I be able to disprove the accusation? My experience doesn't prove anything as it may pertain to Dr., but it at least gives me some experience along these lines to think about. I also have had folks take doctrinal points that I've shared with them and then ignore me completely as they've progressed with the topics. I've had to put up with the slight in order to continue watching what was going on. In one case I shared what was new territory in God's Word with one man only to watch him take it into the most selfish and destructive place that I could imagine, and all the while making sure he kept all the credit, honor, and/or glory to himself. Sometimes I think about sharing what he did in more detail, but I don't want to give any potential sociopaths out there any pointers in the "conquer them and decieve them" categories. At any rate, the topic of this thread touches my life in many respects and in order to consider Dr. Wierwille's life I probably will sort out a few of these issues in my own life too. ( edited for clarity ) Was it successful? I hope so.

Dear Brushstroke, I hope that you know your girlfriend well enough to have a feel for if she's speaking for herself of if she's having her strings pulled by others. ( possibilities include parents and/ or coordinators ) You seem inteligent and capable enough, it seems you get councel from your priest too! Thomas just mentioned the " love-bomb" as a tactic and I have to tell you that it brings back memories. In my case the memories of being love-bombed also include a deliberate and long-lasting attempt to break me with the other hand so to speak. It is not easy to face, but even if they convince you of certain doctrinal points their potential overall effect on your life may certainly be less than the best to say the least. In my experience even good doctrine can mask ravening wolves. It is likely that most involved are ignorant of this if that is truly how it is. Even though you seem very capable, I'm concerned. Take care Brushstroke!!

In my last post on this thread I called leadership "copped out" Because of the 80-20 rule. I'd like to clarify that statement. I think that if a person had 80% of God's Word correct and had a clear conscience that God's grace and mercy would cover that situation easily. But the problem is that when leadership has to tell folks that only 80% of what they are about to learn is good it means that by their own admission they are settling for serving 20% garbage. I cannot see how God will reward them for such a copped out stand. I think that 10% correct with a clear conscience is better than an 80% compromise.

I already know what you mean George, I've already came face to face with a man who I'm convinced thinks his job in the ministry is to control every word and thought of his followers. It still amazes me looking back how much control he has within the group over what they think about him. When I got kicked out it was encouraged by example to call him "the Word in the flesh" within the group. And it was also councelled within the group to hide many things like that because people just wouldn't understand after all. I'm fairly certain that his concern over what they think about him is at the least an obsession, and at worse some kind of fear driven insanity. I will not be overly quick to throw that kind of accusation at any man George. Really, far and away I wouldn't wish that kind of experiential knowledge on anybody. I'm content on this thread to focus on the plagarism issue. (added in editing) I'm going to be leaving again soon. Than you for your responses Waysider, BFH, Ham, Coolchef, Pawtucket, Doojable, Socks, Garthp2000, T-bone, Wordwolf, Shazdancer, and George Aar. I'll be thinking about all of this quite a bit I'm sure.

Thanks everybody, I've got a lot of things to consider in your responses and it is definitely going to take some time to absorb it all. For me the hardest consideration seems to be taking it all in and facing the possibility of having to change my assessment of Dr. Wierwille's character. I have no problem considering these specific facts in light of my knowledge of the pressures of the ministry that existed in the different time frames from the 1940's to present. It is unthinkable to me now that I could condemn Dr. Wierwille for his actions in this topic without also being humane enough to acount for the situation at the time. Thinking like that does not prevent me from acknowledging mistakes, I just think that in general it is a very bad idea to condemn a man's character and intentions without being willing to consider their point of view also. History pushed Dr. Wierwille to a point of being alone, and mostly without the good will of his contemporaries. I've seen it myself that many Christains are completely willing to demonize me for not believing the trinity and believing that the dead will not live again until after they're raised. I don't mind discussing the differences at all and in general I believe that I'm willing to change any belief that I hold if convinced otherwise. But the demonizing and the "mark and avoid" stuff that many of you remember being harmfully missused in TWI is often just as harmful in contemporary Christianity. I have desired honest discussion and many have marked me and avoid me even now. I'm not bragging or anything either, I'm just saying that that's how it is for me right now. Another thing that I know that I will consider is that in spite of any mistakes that Dr. Wierwille made, I learned a lot of good things in PFAL and other classes and programs. I can sympathise with the many of you who getting out of TWI lead to a more radical purging of "way- brain" too, it's just that it's not that way for me. I guess if there are those of you who think that I'm "way-brained" I just have to say that I'm doing my best to be honest with you all. I'm certain that even with my consideration of the plagarism issue ongoing, I'll be able to credit the PFAL class with teaching me many good things. In other topics and threads I've already acknowledged changing some of what I was taught in PFAL, but I do my best to back up the changes that I've made by applying the critical thinking skills that I leared in PFAL. The worst case scenario that I can see right now is that I would be abliged to consider PFAL as a product of something like " Phillipians 1:15,16". I mean the bad one of the two points in those verses. I know that a lot of you have been harmed far worse in TWI and consider the organization in far worse biblical terms than a product of strife and envy. I support you all 100% and tend to believe you completely. (At least as much as I can believe folks that I don't know outside of the internet.) I'm hoping to limit the discussion on this thread to the plagarism issues however. I was harmed by a splinter group and it's ruler especially, just as badly as many of you shared about being hurt by TWI. But not as badly as others, so I 'm glad that you're willing to let me consider these things as they pertain to TWI. ONCE AGAIN, THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK!! You've said a lot and I'm just taking it in.

I sure did laugh Jeast. It also made me think about my own demeanor too. I consider it something that you said that had the right kind of edge to it in a thought provoking manner that is.

Adam and Eve had a lot more than 80% correct and look where it got them!!!! It is a sad thing to me that the 80-20 rule was reported as the norm. Turns out that the copped out run the show. How sad that they were the same ones who felt o.k. accusing so many of being copped out. Jesus Christ did not say, "80% of my words shall not perish." AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! (edited once again for clarity. not uncommon for me)

God bless you and your girlfriend Brushstroke, This is no easy thing you're facing right now, and I hope very, very much that it goes well for you and your girlfriend. I hope you're LISTENING CLOSELY to all this well intended advice. One thing I'll add, even among the posters here there is a wide variety of opinions of what is WAY INTERNATIONAL doctrines. There is even a wider array of opinions as to what is WAY INTERNATIONAL intentions. I am certain that there are many folks here who wish you well however. There are definitly many things to be wary of that concern The Way International and I hope that you are up for it. (edited for clarity)

Thanks BFH, I'll look forward to your posts. P.S. Waysider, It's very interesting to me that every one of your posts Includes that little blurb about the music industry. That is definitly an industry that knows its way around the plagarism issues and the laws too. I've always heard that if song writers copy the great classics that are in the public domain already that they can't be successfully sued for copying other works that copy the same classics. I think that the same legalities cover the legal issues concerning biblical issues. Nobody can copyright the bible or biblical topics for instance. It seems to me that the goodness of God would tend to require more consideration and kindness among Christian authors than what the law requires however. But in a litigious society I think that it's possible to hold someone to the legal standard, but that God's standard requires voluntary compliance.

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THE FEEDBACK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!! Dear BFH, (What does BFH stand for anyway?) I understand why it would strike you as sleazy and disingenuous on Dr. Wierwille's part to copy Fromm's teaching as you say. In my post I said that I need facts, and then would still consider the actions myself. I'm glad that you can share such a specific incident and I'm sure that I'll just take it all in as this thread developes. I reserve to myself the right to consider for myself the heart behind the actions as concerning Dr. Wierwille just as I do for William Tyndale, the King James committee, or anybody else who has faced these issues. It is obvious and clear to me that Dr. developed a pattern of using other peoples' teachings allready. It's a matter of record as you and the other posts here point out. One thing about the teaching that Chris Geer did, and my take on the teaching does for me is it reminds me that there is a difference between commenting on a topic and fighting for things to be better while being right in the middle of the fight. I'm not putting anyone down either, but if I'm right about the intentions behind that teaching of his, then I believe that giving him due credit for it is o.k. Dear Ham, I don't think that you're picking on me. I brought the topic up, I can deal with the topic as this thread developes. As far as citing PFAL goes, for me it's just a simple question of applying the same level of honesty that you criticize Dr. Wierwille for not having. Saying, "I LEARNED IT IN PFAL" is not something that I ever plan on feeling ashamed of. I do not believe saying that makes me in any way complicit in any kind of plagarism. If that opinion of mine changes, I'll be the first one to say so. Dear Waysider, Thank you for the links, even a quick reading makes it clear that Dr. Wierwille got some of the words and the concepts from E Stanley Jones. It suprised me to see that Rev. Jones had the same attitude about the church in India being independent of foreign oversight long before Dr. Wierwille published his piece on the dilemma of foreign missions in India. Thank you, but I'm not taking any of this personally in terms of being offended, after all I am the one who asked for feedback. I've been thinking of one thing personally since I brought it up though. I've been thinking what it must have been like for Dr. Wierwille to have spent his life building a ministry then before he died he knew it was going into the crapper so to speak. I feel compassion for him. The Lord will judge our works too, the same standard will be applied to each of us. Dr. Wierwille's time is over for now and despite any mistakes he made I have no trouble feeling compassion knowing that he'll face the Lord next. After our work is done, so will we! Dear Pawtucket, Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to read some of Dr. Juedes' works. The fact that Dr. Wierwille copied Maggie Muggins and Johnny Jump Up stings a bit. --------------- SOME THINGS THAT I'M STILL CONSIDERING---------------- I've shared with you all that I believe that the Grace of God Is at the root of what was TWI in the old days but then somehow got perverted into what it became by sometime between 1980 and the present. It seems obvious that I meant that the Grace of God dwealt in Dr. Wierwille but I haven't mentioned him specifically, I do say so now. I am still considering the possible pressures and scenarios that led to it getting all screwed up. Some of them will involve mistakes by all involved including Dr. Wierwille for sure. But no matter what TWI became by 1980 or so, I still heard a lot of good in DR. Wierwille and TWI even then. I am going to take some convincing to think anything else. Even from far outside of the root locations it was easy to see back then that to be close to leadership was to be in a real pressure cooker type of situation. And I believe the mistakes were nasty and ugly before my time in TWI even happened, I'm just looking for more understanding.

Hi Chas, I wouldn't get leather furniture until I was sure the cats wouldn't rip it up if I were you. Training and/or declawing are the only two way ways that I know to deal with it. I'd hate to see you spend good money on something that will get trashed right away.

That sounds like a credible and specific story to me bfh, and it causes me to sigh deeply. I remember a teaching by Chris Geer where he castigates an unnamed Christian author for serving up undigested food (or some such thing) during a teaching. After I considered the matter I considered it likely that he attempted to reprove Dr Wierwille. How many Christian authors of note existed in TWI anyway? If that is how it went down then I have to credit Rev. Geer with at least fighting for things to be better. !984-85 was pretty late in Dr. Wierwille's life and he already knew that the ministry was going into the crapper. The cancer might have been already getting to him. Your story all by itself isn't enough for me to wholeheartedly agree with you BFH, but I'm not fighting you either.

Prejudice against the local native americans was the only racial prejudice that I grew up around. It's no better than any other. Some were good upstanding folks. Some of them I partied with, just like my fellow white dumbfoot burnout friends when I was a teen.

I am very glad that you've found out how to enjoy an aggravated hotdog jeast. For all things concerning how to enjoy an aggravated hotdog you are now my new "good example". (edited for clarity)

You are welcome Waysider, I've never been shy about any of this in public. I've mentioned that I'm usually hurting for friends and fellowship. Those two things seem much bigger than any insignificant inconvenience. I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I'm considering other options, and I try never to rush to judgment. Even if an option is unpopular and I am too because of it, I still gotta call it the way that I see it. If Dr. was right or wrong about it; it's allways been obvious to me that even if he directed people away from specific contributers of his, he was honest, generally, about the fact that he learned from several sources. If I hear something that I consider to be true from any of you, I would be bound to consider that God was at work in you. That's how I think. I also believe it's likely that Dr. didn't allways handle these issues perfectly, but then neither have I. P.S. Is how I feel about the lust issue clear to you allready Waysider? I'll say it again if need be. P.P.S. I'm going to have to leave here sometime soon, but I am most definitly looking forward to some feedback here.

That's a lot of words y'all. This is how it has allways worked for me. BBBBBBBBBB bbbbbbbbbbb BBBBBBBBBB bbbbbbbbbbb A reference to all the B's without exeption would include the upper case and the lower case B's. A reference to them with or without distinction (depending on which is correct) would be a reference to all the upper case or all the lower case B's. IT HAS NEVER BEEN HARD FOR ME. That is how it has ALLWAYS worked for me anyway. edited for spelling and grammar. THIS EXPLANATION OF THAT PRINCIPLE IS ALL I NEED IT TO "B." NOW, WHAT IS ALL THIS ABOUT FORGIVING, IS THAT IT FOLKS?

Dear Eyesopen, You're welcome. I hope that it's such HOT BIBLE that it markets itself.

Thanks Paw, I've never seen the video before. DEAR HAM, Now It's been confirmed that a squirrel can do real good. :) LOL :)

Dear T-Bone and Mike, I'm not getting between you two. But If anyone wants a productive conversation about plagarism I've stared a thread in "open." P.S. Ultimately, I want to be as sure as possible that the things that I believe are true.