JeffSjo

Thank for the response Twinky, yeah that's what they did. Leadership portraid it as fighting the devil and my wife agreed with them. I kept pointing out bad Biblical workmanship, false prophecies, and a real twisted view of what church leadership should be. So they completely wrecked my life behind a very convincing "false portrait" of Christain love and goodworks, I fear fooling themselves most of all. I still worry about how many people they could ruin by convincing them to submit to the leader who considers himself an Apostle, but I had to point out repeatedly was a false prophet. (edited to remove a very badly placed capital D.)

As this thread is about the TWI doctrine concerning how all the women in the kingdom belong to the king it seems that some emotion will inevitably be stirred up. In one of my first discussions on this site I went overboard in anger and attacked a few posters many times. After being warned by a moderator I posted an apology for everyone to read. Because of those events I'm now focussing on things that I may be able to say that would actually help people. I find that on certain issues the emotions will still rise to the surface and I'm hoping that if they do that they are as justified as they were when a certain king threw certain vendors out of the temple. I'm not the final judge, I believe He is. As this isn't a religious site I ask for all of you to be patient with me if you don't hold the same views I do concerning the bible, but I ask you to look at the principles behind the scriptures that I may share and on my part I will give full consideration to whatever points you all may make. Dear Oldiesman, (regarding post #92) In your response to my post You think that I want you to be quiet, that is not the case. I'm glad that you post your views for all to read. I will say again that they grate on everything in me for the reasons that I stated, but my real purpose in saying those things was to see if you might be motivated to change your views. Unfortunately in TWI "spiritual anger" was used as a method of controlling people UNJUSTLY and looking back at my anger and sorrow about you Oldiesman I don't see them as unjust. But I'm still considering the matter. (added in editing)(edited for clarity also, not to mention spelling) Dear Oldiesman, With the shared and public internet access that I have I cannot PM anybody. There is allways E-mail however if you would care to. To be perfectly honest with you I am content with the public nature of our communication. I'm quite certain that I have nothing to be concerned about with private communication as any visit to my 'member profile' will verify, especially as I see the potiential good that can come "from" this site and any fellowship with possible friends as a good thing. I'm pretty certain Oldies that you will only find me to be angry, sorrowfull, and at times lacking patience with you however.

I'm very sorry to hear about Sandra Ann Sullivan, today is the first time for me and I'm at a loss for words right now. Take care friends.

Dear Brideofjc and Wordwolf, Thanks for the feedback of post #24 which directly relates to the topic of this thread. I think that the mistakes of TOP LEADERSHIP; as it relates to OT kings; relates directly to the biggest single problem that existed in TWI and was a doctrinal "hingepin" if you will that opened the door to much of the "stealing, killing and destroying that shamefully occured in TWI: and especially shamefull that these devilish things were done falsely; in the Lord's own name. I think that you are correct Brideofjc about the KJV whitewashing the "color" of the Hebrew intent. but it is still extremely relavent in terms of understanding how unstable men will use the scriptures in a fashion that led to so much destruction and I believe at the "very least" will earn them "many stripes", as IT IS WRITTEN in God's Word. I don't think hare krishna ever promised many stripes to anyone who would dare beat their fellowservants, but JC has. Some of you may point out the dispensational point to me; I say JESUS CHRIST is not a liar, or is he ever going to repent of what he's said. Frankly Wordwolf the thing that Dr. said in that chapter that really makes me mad is that "David would have said 'woman, get out.'" to Bathsheba if she would have reminded him of the rape. That Dr. Wierwille actually said that makes me fuming mad. After hearing many of you share about so many people getting hurt: that DR.WIERWILLE actually dared say that speaks to the kind of unhinged arrogance and pride that makes me think about hitting something too. DEAR OLDIESMAN, I offered you my best advice in post # 29. It concerned you learning to show compassion. It seems that taking my advice is beyond your capability for some reason. I feel both anger towards you and sorrow for you. It's the same kind of sorrow that I feel for a fool who's wise in his own conceipt. I wish you'd get it, I hope that you get it, I wait for you to get it........ No you don't get it. It's the same old stuff that Job's comforters had. Knowledge outside of the scope of God's heart. God would have held Job's friends accountable if Job hadn't prayed for them too. I fear for what will become of you Oldies. But let me be clear that I don't mean to imply that I will in any way act to hurt you in spite of how your words grate on everything in me. Your judge has compassion on the wounded and the floundering amoung his flock; and you, most unfortunately, do not. (edited for grammar)

Ouch Wordwolf, Yeah; again; I guess. It sure does make me sigh deeply to think of it like that though. :(

Dear Oldiesman, In my splinter group the public line was most often reasonable, but the private manipulations were vile and reprehensible. It looks to me like my splinter group learned this from TWI. P.S. I added a comment for you on my last post.

That sure brings it home for me Waysider. Dear Oldiesman, I'm glad that you were strong enough to deal with it as you say, but it's clear to me that many weren't as fortunate to have dealt with the mental abuse/persuasion in such a clear fashion as you say that you dealt with it. I think that if you could manage to relate emotionally to those of us who felt the intimidation in a bigger way you might eventually be able to give folks a little comfort for their troubles, or at the very least your councel would seem more palatable to folks. Oldiesman, we are talking about ruined lives here, do you feel compasion about that or not? If you feel some compassion for them then you need to figure out how to show it IMO. I really believe that would make a difference for you.

In my little splinter group it was a long and painful process, but I just kept speaking the truth to the best of my ability over the course of years until they kicked me out without just cause. I have no doubt that they've twisted things until nobody could see straight, but my conscience is clear at least. But the PTSD has been a real bear at times.

IMO if Dr. Wierwille and others in leadership compare themselves to kings when it suits them then we have the right to hold them accountable!!!!!

In "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" which was edited after Dr.'s passing by Chris Geer, Dr. Wierwille teaches some things that have always troubled me along these lines. In the chapter entitled "David and Bathsheba... The Final Chapter", Dr Wierwille explains how it would have been improper for Bathsheba to come in and acuse the king and Abishag of improper conduct. He impied that the right way to handle these situations was by revelation only, and it was not good enough to accuse the king rightly for his misbehavior. DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR TO SOME OF YOU FOLKS TOO????? The teaching troubled me right from the first time that I read it because when I read the biblical record it was clear that all Abishag did was keep the king warm, but as Dr. taught this record he said that Bathsheba had "All the right in the world to come in and say: 'Look, you're my husband. Abishag, you get out of here, you sex fiend.'" ...... In truth, as Abishag only kept the king warm Bathsheba DID NOT have the right to say that, so who was Dr. Wierwille really talking about anyway? After my fellowship here with you folks it seems clear to me that this error in teaching what the Word of God actually says in this record indicates a big problem in Dr.'s last days in his own life. (EDITED FOR GRAMMAR)

Dear but now I see, Peace right back at you. I'm looking for folks to get healed and delivered too. Dear MountaintopCO and penworks, I believe that it would have been possible for Dr. Wierwille; or anyone for that matter; to have a change of heart once the problem is made clear to them. I believe that God probably gave him many more than one opportunity to change. It looks like their was never any meaningful change however and I think most all of us ended up the worse off for it. Dear Estimated Prophet, Good points IMO. Dear Excathedra, I think that you've deserved better for a long time now and I hope that He brings better things to you more and more.

Just don't say as John Lennon did that he's more poular than Jesus. HAW

Dear Oldiesman, In my little splinter group it became regular practise to refer to those who have issues with the MOG (socalled) as in danger of "dying the death." (A reference to rev 2:23) It seems to me that if a teacher can without limit draw comparisons between him/herself and O.T. Kings as they please ;including carrying out some kind of spiritual only death sentence; then those of us who remember have the right to hold them accountable. Especially when by their own words and doctrines they were the ones to make the comparison. HI RASCAL!

Dear Notawayfer, IMO when men decide to lord it over the Lord's inheritance this type of b.s. in whatever specific form it take is inevitable. What is even more creepy to me is how they will take all the wrong lessons out of nearly any reference to Old Testament kings as long as it increases their own power and influence in the ministry.

I'll have to substitute the last words as they pertain to my little splinter group if you don't mind. The similarities are stunning when I read many of your stories. I just got home from work to see my TC/ MOG's thug and his wife standing in my driveway. They told me that my wife and one year old moved out that day. The truth would be that leadership made a deliberate decision to move her out after considering their options a long time. They told me,"You aren't welcome at fellowship until this shameful situation is rectified." The truth would have been that they were hitting me as hard as they possibly could to see if I'd break. As I walked away I said,"The lord has carried me through tougher things than this, he'll carry me through this too!"

Good point waysider. Personally I'm more afraid of bad answers than I am of good questions.

Dear Brushstroke, Do I remember correctly that you've stated that you're 18 years old? Your posts seem to be from someone with a little more experience than I can typically credit to an 18 year old. But then Alexander the great ruled a lot by the time he was 18. Whether you are 18 or not, I enjoy your thought provoking posts.

Interesting idea waysider. Maybe a good lawn service company would do the trick once or twice a year too.

I ran across this site while googling my way through "cult" related sites a while back. I have no idea as to the intentions of this site's founder, if he's sincere or not that is. But what I did sadly conclude was that if after everything that's went on in TWI there are people that think that it's somehow virtuous to think of Dr. Wierwille emotionally only, with a kind of hero worship. That those folks could be easy marks for any huckster savy enough to play on their emotional stand.

Dear but now I see, (REGARDING POSTS # 82, 83, & 84) I reread my last post and I think it was badly written and unclear. This is why you misunderstand my intentions. I hope that is why I sounded a little condescending to you also. I do not advocate any kind of censorship as you say, for those who've read my posts I hope that it's clear that I think a full and complete airing of these things is long overdue. I have consistently applauded those who have told their story here at this site and have resisted those who seemed to want to quiet them also. I think that the folks who seemed to require "revelation from God himself" before anyone would be allowed to deal with these issues only manages to ignore all the plainly written and simply put revelation that has already been written. And whether intentionally or not, they are only assisting the scumbags who have fought so hard to keep these things quiet for the last twenty or so years. If I refer to my beliefs concerning the events surrounding Jesus Christ's return my only intention is to say that even if we cannot manage to get the whole story straight, he will in his day. Over the course of the last few days I've grown more and more thankful for this sharing. Dear EXCATHEDRA, I'm hoping that this sharing is a blessing to you more than anyone else here. I hope that it's settling well. (EDITED FOR CLARITY)(spelling too)

Hi Dot, I hope that things are good with you. It looks to me that either of the echo brush cutters may be what you need. A key thing to keep in mind while you're shopping wil be the diameter of the brush that you need to cut, that will be what you need to know in order to see if a paricular model is up to your needs. It may be good for your use to look for a model that easily converts between a grass cutting line and a brush cutting blade. That way one machine will do everything you need around your house and/or property. I'm not a believer in over-reliance on name brand loyalty but I've never been let down by Husqvarna or Stihl tools. They are more expensive than echo tools but are more towards commercial grade too. Google "stihl brushcutter" or "husqvarna brushcutter" to find them. A company called DR makes an excellent line of brushcutting mowers. Google "dr brushcutter" to find them. I think that this route is the most expensive but also the most heavy duty solution, depending on how big your job is. If you do not have a good hawdware store or home store, I think any of these companies has free literature for you to look at to tell you what you need to know. I'd suggest reading through a few of these sites and then comparing notes with a local store with good help, especially one that has service technicians that fix these types of tools day in and day out. I hope that this helps. Take care Dot.

Hi Dot, I hope you get some good advise, but I think you need someone who knows you and maybe can look at your yard. I generally will not recomend power tools to anyone unless I know them, so that I'm sure that they won't hurt themselves or others. I don't doubt that you have the abilty, but in this forum it's impossible for me to be sure. Do you have some family member or friend you'd trust to give you advise? Maybe a local handyman you can rely on? I hope that it works out for you.

Dear Wrdsandwrks, I've rarely felt as deaply moved as the time I ate a passover meal with some messianic jews who ate the whole meal focussing on how everything there refered to Jesus Christ. Personally I don't feel compelled to keep the feast religiously, but I can't help but remember the tremendous blessing that the meal was to me.

Dear but now I see, I don't know for sure what you believe so please don't take this with any offence. I take comfort in believing that as it is written the Lord will bring to light the hidden things of darkness. But then I don't think it's too healthy to think about that verse too long without taking a look in the mirror either. I'm absolutely not jabbing at you with that, I just want to share how it works in me so that I don't get too critical. I hope you understand. It seems to me that He's going to be far more honest about these things than some think to be spiritual. I don't think the criticism will bother Him though. Imagine that, I don't think that anyone will have the nads to criticize His honesty to His face. I don't think it's written anywhere that anyone would be that crazy, although sometimes I wonder. (edited for grammar) (spelling too) (added in editing) Come to think of it there is a mention of "gnashing of the teeth" in his presence. I guess that some would even criticize the Lord Jesus Christ himself at his judgement. God Help us all.

Hi Dot, I don't feel pressed to be in another relationship at all since my divorce. I'm not against another marriage either, I'm convinced that it's my choice ultimately and I don't think that there is a straightforward commandment of the Lord either way. So for today I'm content not being in a relationship. I hope that you are completely settled in how you feel. I hope that if you change your mind you do so completely assured and at peace with your decision. I THINK THIS IS WHAT'S REFERRED TO AS BEING AT LIBERTY TO CHOOSE. God Bless and take care. (edited for better grammar than "change you mind") (spelling too)