JeffSjo

Well said Rascal. It is still always a pleasure.

Today I had a very interesting discussion that may relate to some folks here. It was with another Christian who fellowship's with another church I used to associate with. things didn't go so well for me their, but this man and I have been working together for a week or so and it's pleasant to discuss things with him. I just make sure that I don't criticize, and he doesn't ask about anything that he really doesn't want to hear. So far so good. He brought up that on board a ship on the high seas it was not permissable to get in the captains face, so to speak. I pointed out from the scripture and my own reasoning that no man is above criticism IN THE CHURCH, except the one true high priest, Jesus Christ himself. All others are fair game the way I see it. Especially when lives are being ruined. This applies to a small degree to my experience in this church; small, smaller, smallest even when compared to TWI. I'm certain that this type of analogy was used to try to silence just criticism and reproof in TWI. "Dr. was the captain of the ship and we must keep military discipline", they said. This lifestyle is neccessary on a ship, but the discipline will not keep in place in any navy if the captain of the ship is drugging and raping his men. To me it is appropriate and neccessary to say clearly that Dr. Wierwille was NOT THE HIGH PRIEST. Even Paul used a slightly similar statement to say something to the Judean High Priest in the book of acts after this priest broke the law by having Paul struck. It is unscriptural, unGodly, and unethical to believe this completely bogus doctrine that many religions propogate IMO. But I hope it becomes clear to even more people that Dr. Wierwille did not nor ever will rate an exception to criticism, reproof, or even rebuke.

Hey dove, I've been wondering for quite some time if Dylan got those kick azz lyrics he sang about what the fathers did to their daughters from TWI. I think it was in his Christain stuff. Would you ask him for me? Tell him that I think Stern is one nasty s.o.b. too, will you? (edited for spelling)

Ham, ha ha ha Not for GOD, but only HIM!

Thank you Cman for the feedback, I agree about the mods doing a good job. If experience has taught me anything in respect to this type of function, it's that the worst offenders of common decency often complain the most when their own words or ideas come under scrutiny. I am no fan of the neo-nazi groups in the U.S.A., but this country gives them rights. And even though they actively pursue the abolition of these rights for many races and religions they seem to scream "foul" very loudly when their own beliefs or actions warrant some kind of censure. Some of these folks here seem to share the same faulty sense of right and wrong. But for me it is very clear that the arguing served to clarify where I stand. Dear Bramble, I have to admit that this seems like a good idea, but in practice a person who many of us feel is a committed troublemaker will try to mess with any system, and as they are committed in a big way, they may find a way to make trouble in any system. I'll just wait and see, I'm confident that the mods do their best. One possible weakness in even this system is what about the neccessity of examining even specific stories that really do need examinination and/or scrutiny. I'm just saying that any system may have some kind of fault. My heart does go out to Paw and associates for having to deal with all of this. Dear Wordwolf, And that seems to be just one of many hinderances that someone who thinks they know all the tricks can do, Blech. Dear Rocky, If I was convinced that words could not possibly change attitudes and or beliefs I'd have no reason to (As I've said elsewhere) still be waiting for something good to come out of some. I think perhaps that some kind of emotional event occurs when a wise man/woman responds to loving reproof. But unfortunately our TWI experience seems to have scared many people because of all the unjust, unloving bullying that occured there.

For me, responding to some of these folks has been helpful for me when I think about their responses to my point. One poster got me feeling a little down about what I percieved as hardened attitude mixed with complex mindgames for a little bit, but apparently that one is not here anymore. It also may be instructional for anyone to see good solid answers being given to a troublemaker I think, but to much of it with a troublemaker that will not change just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, blech. Just for the sake of being up front about it, I try to be exceedingly CLEAR about why I'm not happy too, for everyone's consideration. It may be that the exhortation to "not feed the trolls" may be a good thing for some, but maybe not for others. I may never get to catch up with everything in these newer threads, but I do remember Ham saying that he found some of the conflict to be refreshing.

If I was on another sight and someone started a thread like this that obviously included ME among those that were being considered for being given the boot I would count it as an opportunity to restate my case, and my premise along with my intentions of not being harmful, but instead proving to the best of my ability my good intentions. This would be the simple, direct, and honest way of handling the thread IMO. Has WD made any attempt to convince anyone that his heart's motivation is love WHILE he's handling the issues that surround Dr. Wierwille at this site? Certainly not that I've seen. Does White Dove hold Dr.'s memory as a thing to be treasured, probably IMO. I just wish that he'd say it so that we all could be very clear on where he's coming from. If someone said to me, "I love and honor Dr.'s memory and I think that you are all a bunch of lying scumbags!", I would at certainly feel respect and compassion for such a person!!!!! But when a person who may or may not feel this way about Dr. Wierwille attacks good people who I've come to respect and care for and then does everything in their power to dominate the conversation and belittle those that are sharing; my respect for the pro-Dr. Wierwille folks must need to be replaced by standing up for legitimate TWI victims even if the conversation becomes intense. This is exactly what I found happening here at the Greasespot not long after I arrived. This is also what I will continue to do. It is not just the personal testamony of some, even though the abundance of it is very convincing here. It is the number of faults that become readily apparent in Dr.'s biblical workmanship, and the vast difference between his words and his actions. Many of these things are real memories for me that before now never grew past the questioning stage and into finding answers. White Dove, Oldies and others have served the purpose of helping me make up my mind as far as deciding who is being truthful or not. When I compare their love, compassion, directness and honesty with those who they've attacked it seems obvious to me that they are the one's who are lacking. At least for the most part I've told them up front how I'm thinking about them too. What is all this about PMing networks to besmirch each other's reputations, how trite and backstabbing can a human get anyway, I think it is just shameful.

Hi Abigail, I'm vary glad that you started this thread because ever since another poster asked if we were going too far in the "Give them the boot" thread I've been considering the matter. In Corinth Paul had the church expell one person for a little while even though later he said to bring him back into the church. Paul talks very clearly about how this behavior could damage the church in Corinth. So the do it for everyones good idea seems to apply here. But Paul also says that the Lord judges those that are outside the church and also encouraged them to deal with the real issues that arose within the church. If Paul had made even ONE clear reference to this man being cut off from God I wouldn't think that the whole idea of being not a part of the fellowship anymore was THE SAME as being cut off from God was hogwash. I think that EVEN IF a person is legitimately removed from a fellowship for a time the scriptural idea is that it was in order to FACE GOD, not to be cut off from him. I think that TWI didn't stand a chance in hell of getting this one right because the rottenness lived in DR. Wierwille's heart and he transfered it to as much of his leadership as he could. When the man in charge acts like that and cannot be kicked out as was appropriate, then the whole thing goes bad. That is what happened, and now Dr. Wierwille will face the Lord for his crimes face to face. In O.T times lepers were cut of from intimacy, but never was any implication given of them being cut off from God in the scriptures. As a matter of fact, by two lepers God delivered Isreal once. If I understand the law rightly that everyone that was cut off according to O.T law but wasn't punished by death was still considered to have hope in God. I think that the way TWI used the IDEA of being cut off from God was a wicked and devilish manipulation designed to make good people cave in to the pressure and give up the fight. BASTARDS (Edited for spelling and some added too.) I think that it's fair to say that the VAST majority of excommunications throughout history were somehow unjust, and that people screwed up the concept in general.

A minister was out hunting in the woods one day and unfortunately for him he fell into a ravine, broke a leg and lost his rifle. After sizing up his situation he was terrified to see a bear walking towards him. The minister prayed fervently, "Oh Lord, let this bear be a Christian!" When the bear reached the fallen man he suddenly put his paws together and bowed his head to pray," Oh Lord, thank you for this meal that I'm about to recieve."

Personally, if it wasn't bad enough that WD insisted on speaking in irrelevant and unnessessary legal terminology that all by itself would be enough to intimidate many people, he/she adds to it by refusing to deal with the issues at the Greasespot staightforwardly. He adds no personal credibility of his own to show that he's qualified to set the record straight either. Chris Geer might be qualified to do this more than any living human being but he's apparently mastered the art of "hiding while still being on his high horse" at the same time. If he came here with that b.s. emporer attitude of his (Dr. Wierwille taught him that by the way) I'm certain there would be many here more than capable of knocking him off of it. My Lord was meek and rode in on a colt. But as long as that man who apparently was fooled into thinking that serving Dr. Wierwille's penis was the same as serving God won't come around here to speak for himself I guess we might have to deal with a few unqualified and incompetant apologists.

In the same manner that I say that Al Capone was a murderer I say that Dr. Wierwille pimped out young women to TWI leadership. Whitedove, this is not a court of law, and you have the right to an expectation from me I suppose. I have the right to not offer up any more proof than what already abounds here at the Greasespot. (added in editing) I have to go now, I look forward to reading the continuation of this later.

It seems obvious to me that I can conclude that Dr. Wierille, LCM, and Chris Geer covered up criminal activity without them being convicted in a court of law. Al Capone was a murderous mobster IMO, and I haven't read of one conviction on him except tax evasion.

Dear Pond, Please note that my name is out. I think Dr. Wierwille was a scumbag that also spoke Bible. Who are you anyway?????

There are a lot of guilty people that I read about in the Bible, and the stories are all true IMO, and they happened long, long ago. Many sinned even worse than Dr. Wierwille too, and I read about them also. No fantasies there either.

How is writing an epistle without talking to anybody in person face to face POND?

Sorry about the accidental double post.

So you two, how did Paul judge the Corinthian pervert without a fair hearing, was he wrong too?

Hi Pond, It's been a while since we've talked. It was a little rough at first too, huh. But in one conversation I agreed with you because the scriptural point that you brought up worked really well with the topic at hand, and I felt respect for you at that point, and I'm guessing that, since you didn't say otherwise that it was at least a little like that for you too. I am certain that for many pro TWI people that truth is subjective in terms of how badly they treat supposed (in their minds anyway) TWI victims. It seems certain to me that the simple fact that there is a fight that chases away some that are looking into the truth of these things is enough for them to justify their treatment of the victims. In this mind set provocations, evil speaking, chasing the gentle souls away and false accusations are just simply tools in their hands for the "spiritual battle" that they fight. IMO we can only expect honesty from these folks after they realize that "truth" is not on the side of their bad behavior. But as they tend to be committed to their cause, it is not easy to get a change of heart in these circumstances. God willing IMO, it can be done however. In this instance I see potential to help even the most committed waybrainer. With still hurting victims meeting deliberate provocatures it seems unavoidable that some cat fighting is inevitable in an open forum. I think it would be nice to know that real victims are getting real help though. I do not think that in this open forum any real victim should open up however, let alone use their real name. If any of the abusers don't like this, I think that their are some who would deal with them face to face as required however, just let the victims get to capable, well intentioned help IMO.

Thank you for sharing that blessing Jeast. That one was my biggest smile today so far.

This was my best laugh today so far.

I've been thinking for a while on how to start a discussion about trolls. I use this term troll not according to mythology, but according to common internet usage as I understand it. I've chosen to do this in the doctrinal section as I believe it is the best shot we have at this discussion being a help to folks, and not have it become an excercize in finger pointing or fruitless accusations. I really hope that those of you who respond to this topic here can resist the urge to point out who you think are the trolls here at the greasespot as I believe that a solid look at the trolls (so to speak) in the scriptures might help any of us deal with difficult personalities. Besides, I've found that I'm not above acting somewhat troll-like if something aggravates me and it gets under my skin. I've never met a person who was above being tempted with this either. ________________________________________________________________________________ ______________ Troll #1 The apostle Paul before he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. I picked him first because of the fact that not only did he cast Christians in prison and compell them to blashpheme, but later he turned from this ruthless behavior and had the courage to own up to it when he spoke to the church. He spoke of the Lord having mercy on him because he did it ignorantly in unbelief even though he referred to himself as "chief among sinners" when he did these bad things. I would like to think that the Lord could lead any of us to the place where we could seek a good end to those who trouble us too. ________________________________________________________________________________ ______________ Troll #2 Elymas the sorcerer *Acts 13: 8-13 Here was a troll who sought to withstand the Apostle Paul and was blinded by the power of God. Elymas was not like Paul used to be. He was a deliberate pervert and enemy of God. He was judged by the Lord accordingly. I think it is noteworthy to see how that Paul did not treat him like former TWI leaders have treated those who they falsey accused of being trolls in the ministry. For the most part IMO TWI methods of dealing with a trouble maker (so-called) lacked any of God's blessing even though their methods were destructive and ruthless. I believe that when the Lord judges this TWI leadership that they will not be spared either. ________________________________________________________________________________ ______________ Troll #3 Simon the sorcerer *Acts 8: 9-24 Her was a seducer and a deciever who believed the things that Phillip spoke, yet he became a believer. Yet even though he believed, his heart was not right and he was told by Peter that he would be judged by the Lord. I don't know how the story ended for Simon, but at least he sought mercy from the Lord and the apostle Peter. ________________________________________________________________________________ _______________ Troll #4 Judas From the beginning the Lord knew that Judas would betray him, but as an obedient son he carried out what God wanted him to suffer. The victory is the Lord's because of His obedience. I don't think that any of us have been hurt like this by our trolls, but the Lord is keeping the score. ________________________________________________________________________________ _______________ (These caps are for emphasis only) I THINK THAT WE MUST ALL DEAL WITH TROLLS. I THINK THAT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WE HAVE ALL BEEN TROLLS OURSELVES. I THINK THAT THE LORD HIMSELF IS THE ONLY ONE QUALIFIED TO SAY WHAT A MAN OR WOMAN'S FATE WILL BE. I THINK THAT WE CAN LEARN FROM THESE THINGS AND APPLY THEM IN OUR DAY TO DAY LIFE INCLUDING HERE AT THE GREASESPOT TO BETTER HANDLE TROLLS. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR OF OTHER TROLLS IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU THINK ABOUT TOO.

Dear Groucho, This is a new one for me. OMG The insanity just gets worse and worse the longer that I consider the matter. This is clearly a testimony to the nasty little crowd control techniques that Dr. Wierwille employed that he ran such a tight ship that this sort of garbage was even openly shared. I think that for the first time I am truly happy that TWI broke-up and/or fell apart. Even though the trash fire worthy garbage doctrines keep plugging along to some extent. BLECH!