JeffSjo

Dear friends, In my splinter group and I'm certain in TWI the reasonings like God loves us all, don't be legalistic, HE HAS A MINISTRY AFTER ALL, and the spiritual can handle this right so it's not really sin all were used to hide very nasty, dishonest, and wicked business. IMO this type of ignoring sin based on some kind of FALSE idea of the Grace of God has been catostrophic for many of us.

Dear Dot, Thank you for this thread. I think that there are a lot of people that try to wield the sword of doctrine as it concerns these things that you bring up. My honest assessment of the situation is that all these bickering Christians cannot all be correct as they accuse one another using the same scriptures. I don't see that in you or this thread however and I am glad for the considerations you offer. In spite of the conflict that often accompanies these things I believe that they are true and something to be sought after and hopefully by the grace of God, something that we can get right.

Dear Mark Clarke, I know what you are saying about many considering the good stuff (so-called) being wrong. Many things that I have stood on and based my life on for years up to a few months ago I recognize now as hogwash. There are some things that were taught by TWI however that I don't ever expect be be chased off however. But I do my best to dance this dance honestly. It looks to me now that TWI RUINED many of the things that I now consider to be thew good stuff in terms of corrupt practices and the disease that ruined things ran deap into the way tree and also that the seeds of TWI's ruin were present in Dr. Wierwille's heart at the very beginning of TWI. A common way that I refer to the good stuff (IMO) is referring to "The best of PFAL. But even though it would be simpler to throw the whole thing into the scrap heap of my mind and wait for thew promised garbage fire I will continue to do my best to honestly evaluate these things and take care of the doctrinal issues one at a time. IMO most of the things that I refer to as "THE BEST OF PFAL" Dr. just took from other men and billed it as his own work. Wierwille loyalists will point out that he admitted to using other people's works, but I will then point out that he was careful to keep all the credit and the vainglory that he obviously desired for his own. And in the end IMO the control freak side of his personality was at the root of much of the destruction that TWI caused and was also among the worst traits that his most committed disciples learned from him. And this control freak stuff continues to live on under the thin veneer of "coordinating and covering."

Dear Rascal, When I first got to the greasespot one of the first things that I shared with you was my desire to not judge because of my own shortcomings. As a man I've been in situations with women that were wrong, plain and simple. One of my concerns then was that how could I speak against TWI leadership knowing that I have had inapropriate lust for women in my heart too. But my life is not the life of TWI leadership. I learned from them and credited them with the things that I've learned that have stood the test of time for me. Dr. Wierwille lied when he said the things he learned were from years of study using the bible as his only reference. To me, GOD IS GENUINE, Dr. Wierwille lied. I have been with single and willing women and am now sorry for it. Dr. Wierwille abused young women who were under his control and lied about it until his death. And his insane disciples continue to do everything in their power to quelch the truth of this matter. For me to fight for truth and honesty in these matters is something that I already have come to grips with for myself to the best of my ability. To stand against the continued abuse of TWI victims is A TOTAL NO-BRAINER.

Very interesting thread Skyrider, I've never been more thankful to be a lowly intermediate class grad and a WOW vet. My only TWI acceptible qualification may be speaking. HHHMMM.

Dear Nero, My heart and my prayers are with you and your family. I'm so sorry. I lost my dad a little over a year ago, it's still difficult at times for me.

One of my favorite authors, William Tyndale has pointed out that if the truth; as it applies to turning from wickedness that is; is refused by anyone that they will get worse and worse instead of the "getting better" that God may have intended. This moral seems consistent with biblical records to me. I'd be very interested in hearing a modern version of these things as it applies to therapy today.

Dear Geisha779, I am really glad that you post more now, I always seem to get something good out of your posts, thank you. It seems to me that Dr. Wierwille had many opportunities to turn from his wickedness. Just DWBH's posts alone about confronting Dr. with the abuse that was starting to come to light in the ministries councelling efforts seems like God was at work to help Dr. turn. It seems to me that Dr. was incapable and/or unwilling to change. In most cases like that IMO God doesn't have many options besides letting the offender go head-long into the mud, so-to-speak. Not that it's good to put God in any kind of box in our thinking, let me say that God CAN let someone continue in error and therebye be a BASTARD biblically speaking. It seems to me that in Dr.'s case the SHOE FITS. (edited for clarity)

Happy, happy birthday From all of us to you.....

I am grieved by the Way International when I think of all the wounded and dead (I mean that literally) believers that have been deliberately sacrificed so that TWI leadership could keep hiding its nasty, stinky, and dirty laundry. And all the lies that the believers have been led to believe in order to keep the rotten house looking good, PAINTED TOMBS INDEED. (EDITED FOR SPELLING)

Dear Oklahoma City WOW 78, For me it makes all the difference that the biblical reference to bastards refers to uncorrected wickedness. I don't remember the reference right now, but Brideofjc gave it to all of us in the "Grieved by the Way International" thread. P.S. I discovered early on when I was reffering to Balaam and his azz that the automated censor at this sight would not allow that one even innocently, o.k. with me.

There were simply sooo many things wrong. What is galling me the most at the moment is remembering all the times that Dr. expressed some kind of sentiment concerning protecting the women. RAT BASTARD Now I recognize that it was most often condescending to the women too. I probably should have seen a problem with that alone. But when I hear these reports of just how nasty he was I get quite steamed. #%&*$////!@# And the loyalists of Dr.'s, yes I have compassion, understanding WHY they feel the way they do, but these are crimes against God and people. THESE CRIMES WERE HEINOUS!!!

Dear DWBH, A few days ago I "shouted out" something about dancing shoes being more fun than snake boots. It seems to me that you were expecting a dance, but got a snake.

Dear T-Bone, In my mind there is wisdom in your words, but in my MOOD I'm thinking, "WINESKINS.....BUBBLES.....WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? JUST POUR IT ON AND LET 'EM BURST!

Well said everyone, I use the sociopath reference when it seems to apply also. I'm no expert on these terms but I'm certain that a common characteristic is a complete lack of what most folks would consider a conscience, or any kind of sense of right and wrong. In such a case NO FEELINGS at all is a more accurate description than hatred. I'm not quick to say without being certain exactly what is going on in anyone's heart. I do believe that the Lord is the only one qualified to have the final say there. Once again, I'm happy to add for the benefit of my non-christian friends that if you don't believe what I believe that I hope that you can translate my sentiments into any ethical framework that works for you, I'll hear you out anyway. But when we look at Dr. Wierwille's actions honestly IMO it's simply a question of WHAT KIND OF INSANITY that he's guilty of. I believe that the same goes for Chris Geer and other programed automotons that Dr. groomed to continue in his steps and cover his tracks. I used to be heartbroken over the breakup of TWI. Now it appears to me that the breakup was ALLOWED TO HAPPEN by those in control in order to effectively hide the darkness. Kind of like it would be better for things to be split up than to have those that were involved and honest being able to get together and compare notes.

I heard a comedy routine ounce in which the comedienne made it clear that in the south it meant "how you said it" more than "bless you heart." I think she said it in a way that made it clear that "You dumbass" was meant. Except it was funny when she said it.

Dear DWBH, Just a couple of things. Do I understand you correctly that you consider going to Dr. about the problems a mistake? I think it was honest and brave, maybe even necessary. (TWO CENTS) What would have better in your opinion? Again let me say thank you. I remember thinking that the yak twig was our best hope. That is what I was told. But it is very sad that the truth and integrity was undercut in such a nasty fashion. And over such nasty business. (edited for spelling, and a little was added too.)

For any man to commit the atrocities that Dr. Wierwille has been reported of doing, that man must have a lot of hatred in his heart. When I recently read the report of three generations of abused women in one family, come again...... THINK ABOUT IT......THREE FRIGIN GENERATIONS...... This was in a committed loyalist's family too!!!!!! The only thing that I can compare it with in the news right now,(that is if my new and revised picture of Dr. is clear) is the treatment of women in several of Africa's recent conflicts. Defiling the women is an attack on the men too, the race and culture of the targets. (In their thinking anyway) My splinter group leader had a desire for dominance over men that far exceeded his desire for truth. As far as I know the sexual aspects weren't there, but any man that challenged him was inevitably marked for destruction. (My life is ample evidence for me) In this sense and IMO ironically he was the man he claims to be, a TRUE SON of Dr. Wierwille. Once he and one of his chief thugs visited Ralph Dubovsky. At the time I think he was sharing the "heavy revy" of his latest false prediction about the time of the Lord's return along with a bunch of stuff on the stars. Later this chief thug told me that Ralph's ATTITUDE proved to him that Ralph was not worthy of recieving the "Word of God." In my opinion this man who was the same one that kicked me out of the group is worthy of several tirades that I think I will hold back on for now. Control issues were at the root of both groups (My splinter and TWI) too. (Added in editing) This new picture of Dr. Wierwille that I'm developing is refreshing in this sense only. It makes sense to me on several different levels in terms of making sense of many things having to do with TWI's break-up. But the topic matter is very uncomfortable to deal with. Dr. was apparently the worst kind of manipulator and abuser that I can think of, and he did it in the name of God too. And all the while carefully maintaining the appearance of the ever loving "father in the word." I used to feel deprived because I never got to partake in any of his fathering personally. But now I'm certain that if he had gotten his hands on me when I was a young man that there is no telling how much of this TWI garbage (I am waiting for the promised garbage fire too.) I might have been sucked into. I remember many things about myself that someone with Dr.'s skill might have been able to manipulate into making me one of the offenders.

Hi RainbowsGirl/ new friend, I'm looking for work again. Would you help me put together a resume?

Dear Ham, I know what you mean, and several of your remarks apply to me to some degree. TWI and Dr. Wierwille are looking nasty, nasty, NASTY to me now!!!!!!! The extent of the hidden nastiness is staggering to me. I suppose there are any number of examples of the same kind of thing in history or current events, but when it hits as close to home as "This stuff ruined my life and others," it's just ...... I don't know..... STAGGERING.

"NEVER FORGET WHO TAUGHT YOU GOD'S WORD." ----- Dr. Wierwille I say, " True enough, but he isn't looking to me as good as I always thought he did."

THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I REMEMBER ABOUT DR.WIERWILLE FROM THE OLD DAYS. (good side only) *He taught me more about the bible than I ever heard before. *He said, "You're going to heaven and all hell can not stop you from getting there." *He said, "If you compromise one iota on God's Word you are dead people." *I heard many stories of the Power of God by way of the Holy Spirit living in him. *I heard many stories about how being tight with him made someone more spiritual somehow, like some kind of special secret knowledge or something. I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THESE KINDS OF THINGS TOO, BUT ALL I WANT TO SHOW IS THAT THIS IS WHY I CAN FEEL COMPASSION FOR SOMEONE WHO STILL IS BEING LOYAL TO THEIR MEMORY OF HIM. There really was an awful lot of good things that were said to hold on too. And many good people still think like that about him. ________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________ But this was not all that was going on in TWI, was it folks? I've heard enough to be convinced that Dr. Wierwille had a very,VERY mean and twisted side to his personality. It is no surprise to me that many of these loyalists of Dr.'s have a hard time looking at it. What dissapoints me the most however is how all the splinter groups who KNOW what was going on just continue the WHITEWASH. Dr. Wierwille will be the one paying for his crimes IMO. All I have to base that conclusion on is a few scriptures. What purpose does it serve to try to hold on to "the good stuff" when you can't bear to look at the bad, at best the splinters are engaging in some kind of unrealistic wishful thinking, and continuing the WHITEWASH/ DECEPTION. If you want to engage in truth, try the truth, DUH.

Dear Finallyunderstand, I had hoped it was clear that judging people on a case by case basis was necessary and also that it was in my thinking too. The more damaging part IMO is that mixing God's Word with Dr. Wierwille's thinking seems to be a much more toxic mixture in general than dealing with just Dr. Wierwille's pathologies. Personally, I wouldn't make it a bumper sticker, however. It would only be "gotten" by a few and only be odd to the rest IMO. :)

Thank you Don'tWorryBeHappy for an imformative and useful thread. As far as psychotherapy goes, I've never been physically close to it, but I do remember that Dr. Wierwille taught the dismissive attitude that you describe. For most of my life since it's been very easy for me to hold on to this attitude in some kind of benign prejudice I think. But it has also been obvious to me that a systematized field of study on the human condition could be useful, informative, and helpful at best while potentially being harmful at worst. I think that the same can be said of religions too. When my splinter group experience ended with my expulsion I begged my wife to go to some kind of councelling and I sought out direction and help from some of the local ministers. After I found what seemed like a councelling service that for me seemed to stand out above the rest I asked my wife to go there with me. She declined, as she was taught that the devil and I were some kind of best buds or something. TWI stories mixed with my splinter experience has taught me that a well intentioned non-christian therapist is much, MUCH better than a ministry controlled by a man with sociopathic tendencies that totally wrecks any attempt to live in any kind of spiritual reality. I think that a ruined spiritual reality can at best be called a delusion. I think that for these reasons that a BAD THERAPIST is most likely FAR LESS HARMFUL THAN TWI.