JeffSjo

I thought this thread would be about the unrestrained teanagers at the Rock of Ages that were there and acting like that because of unrestrained TWI leadership.

In my splinter group the head (I often think of other..... bodyparts) honcho once said to folks that, "without me, God could have wiped you like a plate." gak.....gag! He bragged three times or four to the whole group that if people only knew what he did in the ministry he'd be in prison. (paranoid..... or maybe criminal) He told everybody, with TEARS mind you, about all the nights he stayed up just praying for us. IMO it wasn't anything at all except trying to convince us he was for real in order to have us buy his twisted agenda.

I wish that I knew the name of this Willie Nelson song. It was about about a hobo and his pregnant girlfriend. They were despised by folks, and in the end the girlfriend died. I think that it was considered too strong a song for the radio in general, even though I heard it play once. (edited for spelling) This didn't make me cry, but the first time I heard "Earl's Gotta Die" it kicked me in the gut like a Missouri mule.

As far as becoming a liar's tool goes, one issue seems central to me right now. This record that I mentioned touches on it too. It is impossible and/or highly unlikely that one of us will become a tool if we don't sell out to the idea that someone's ministry is genuine when it is in truth just a cover for scummy actions like in TWI. "The Passing of a Patriarch" is IMO a document written for dubious reasons and filled with lies and/or ommisions that amount to lies. But even in that document Chris Geer makes it clear that to Wierwille, the idea of being convinced that his ministry was genuine was a central idea of TWI. I remember how Geer wrote that it was not spiritually sharp to let the oldtimer that came to see Wierwille into the coach just before Dr. died. The problem as it was written of was that this oldtimer never became "sold out" to Dr.'s ministry being genuine. It seems most likely to me now that this oldtimer had some sense. I think that TWI's commitement to this supposedly genuine ministry of Wierwille's was in and of itself unbiblical. It doesn't seem a stretch to me to liken this uncommited oldtimer that Geer despised to the widow woman I spoke of to Rascal. Time will tell, but a central idea of many abusive religious organizations is the idea of "SELLING OUT" to an individual who doesn't deserve your trust. IMO that was certainly the case in TWI.

Dear Rascal, I understand how you feel, I'm pretty sure anyhow!? I think that for those of us who have been burned as far as the faith goes, that childlike trust is a hard thing. One of my favorite bible records on this topic is the widow that Elijah lived with. After he fed them miraculously by the spirit of God for a long while her son died. (I'm working off of memory, if some of the details are off, I trust the point is still sound.) It was only after he raised her child from the dead that she said," Now I know that God is with you." (Or some such sentiment) I find this record to be an AWESOME example of not being easily fooled. Even though their daily meals were miraculously provided, this wonderful woman did not "Give it up easily" as far as her childlike faith, even for Elijah. WHAT A WOMAN!!! Rascal, I hope and trust that you will work through your challenges without being taken in again. JEFF (edited for grammar and spelling)

Oldiesman, Rascal was addressing me with her post and not YOU. Rascal and I apparently share some of the same feelings that you do not feel. Since Rascal was addressing me and not YOU, please keep your lack of these feelings to yourself and please keep your unwelcome input to yourself. If you wish to expound on why these feeling are offensive to you then I believe that you should start another thread of your own. Something like, "Why feelings of accountability need not apply to me for ignoring what I knew was going on in the old days." Maybe you were not aware, I don't know for sure. Maybe you didn't blow off anyone who needed help like I did, I don't know for sure. But I am firm in this one thing with you now, since Rascal was addressing me with her post, your feeback in this instance is OFFENSIVE TO ME. Dear Nero, You've shared before that with your family that there are still ties to TWI. I hope that these things have worked out for you and your family's sake. However it has worked out so far, I'm glad that you seem to have settled on a course for yourself. I really hope that it goes well for you.

Dear David, Every time I've tried to enable the that option at three different libraries in two completely different library systems the computer has told me that I went into an error state, or something like that. It seems to me that it cannot be done. I'll look at my controls to be sure, thanks for the help no matter how it turns out.

Dear DMiller, I'm here today because a friend told me that you were trying to reach me. Normally, my internet access is public and doesn't have PM capabilities. I can be E-mailed or even old fashioned mail if you are willing to check my profile. I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, JEFF

Dear Waysider, I've been thinking about this and it seems to track with your post. TWI claimed that the Grace of God covered their faults. Ethically this seems to me to be wrong; biblically, this seems like pure fantasy. I think that for those who were taught that the Grace of God somehow covers sexual abuse or even worse, transforms sexual abuse into serving God were the biggest tools of all. For anybody who's had a change of heart that was in this boat, I would hope that they'de find the courage to share about it and I also hope that even the injured would find it in their hearts to not condemn the ones who are truly sorry. But for those who haven't dealt with their guilt, whether it was a lot or a little, I think that at best, they could be a tool for those who've taught that in order to honor God we need to ignore these things. I think that some folks have a hard time facing these things, and for them I feel compassion. I have no intention to allow them to "tread on" TWI victims no matter what their motivation is. For those who refuse to be honest and are only trying to cover their assets (Know what I mean?) I have no empathy for and I think that they will probably find themselves in a very bad place when they are judged. (I'm not talking about me judging them, or any of you either.) (edited for spelling)

Dear Waterbuffalo, It's like that for me too in many ways. Dear Ham, IMO if they can't face the music as it concerns their past now, then what chance do they have before the Lord. And if many of us who were not involved in the sexual abuse have accountability issues, then those who were involved cannot possibly deserve to teach anything billed as "Truth." ________________________________________________________________________________ Recently I talked to a sweet woman and Corps grad who helped me after I was kicked out of my splinter group. I was dissapointed to hear that the first thing out of her mouth when I brought up TWI abuse was that the victims deserve the blame for their predicament. (Another programmed TWI tool IMO) It was amazing to me that she would say that even though she witnessed TWI leadership trolling for chicks within the Corps program training that she went through. In every other respect she is a wonderful and compassionate person. But this darn blaming the victim crapola that was spearheaded by Martindale and Geer is persistently wicked. Sadly, ever since she helped me she's distanced herself from me. I think that I might be more trouble than she wants to deal with, I don't blame her for that, it's just a little sad I guess.

Thank you Waterbuffalo, very much Dearest Excathedra, Thank you for sharing that with me, it does my heart good! Dear Twinky, If you and I were best friends and twelve years old, and you made Rainbowsgirl answer like she did by calling attention to her post I swear, I would hit you real hard on your shoulder and say, "shut up dumbazz!" But then that is what friends do sometimes. (edited for grammar)

Dear Twinky, What, are we five years old or something. :biglaugh: Besides, between Dolly and Jessica rabbit I would think the ground would be much more fertile for juvenile taunting. :blink: THANK YOU BRIDEOFJC!

Yeah, I wonder about it too sometimes. I think that for the most part the quickest way to cash in on this type of technology is with some type of military application. Sad but true very often IMO.

Dear Copehagen, I'm so sorry too. Been there, done that. Walk with wisdom, please. JEFF

Thank you everyone for the feedback. It somehow amazes me to think of all the enablers and helpers this whole women abusing TWI must have groomed to help them abuse women. I wish for their sake that they are able to come to open and honest terms with these things. They were even more of a tool than I was IMO. But as far as former top leadership goes, I think that if they won't deal with these things in the public eye, then they'd be better off just being quiet. Either way, they'll have to face the Lord, the same as me. (edited for clarity)

Dear Copenhagen, I certainly remember TWI fellowships that were just like the ones that you describe, STALE. The manifestations were milk-toast. The prayers were repetetive. The songs were the same ones over and over. etc etc. I think that this is because TWI leadership so effectively snuffed out every believer that attempted to deal with the issues that really needed to be dealt with. And as control became more important than living, loving fellowships we became unable to deal with anything outside of the "stupid and flawed TWI box." Lukewarm and ready to be spit out of his mouth (ref. to laodicea from Revalation) seems to me to have become the norm. SIGH.........

This is a huge topic, and frankly all the theological wrangling is wearisome to me, I guess that it is because I've been through it hundreds of times. sigh I think that for me there is one simple fact that folks have talked AROUND but never answered directly. I don't like to think that there is any doctrine that I believe that I wouldn't admit was wrong if I learned better. But this one thing has never been answered to my satisfaction. The bible NEVER MENTIONS the trinity. After all, here are the writings of many prophets and apostles who bled themselves dry trying to insure that the believers understood the truth. Some begged the believers to understand certain things, some reproved, rebuked, and even cried tears so they'd get understanding. And it somehow slips their mind to mention the nature of God to the believers, come on....... That is why the extensive theological discussions bore me. Without it even being mentioned in the scripture I assert that nobody has the right to compel me to believe it. Without a COMMANDMENT, I say that it a moot point. And after the afformentioned councils when the non-trinity believing believers were compelled to confess the trinity or die, they were being wickedly oppressed to believe in a God that was suppose to be styled after many pagan gods without ever being mentioned in the scriptures. This may be a mind-bender for some of you but unlike my former TWI brethren I have no problem saying,"Jesus, my lord and god" either.

I've recently read on another thread where a poster that I feel a lot of respect for said very succinctly that she felt shame at realizing that in times past she promoted the TWI and even defended top leadership as Wierwille, Martindale, and Geer...etc. I have to say that this is not an easy thing to deal with. Personally, I believe that God Himself worked in and blessed believers that I knew. I am now convinced that these guys I've already mentioned used the ministry to satisfy there own lusts and preyed on women in a most despicable and predatory manner. And on top of that I believe that TWI became predatory and despicably manipulative in most if not all respects. Not to mention that they must be COMPLETELY UNHINGED if they think that they can stand for God and/ or the truth without dealing with their past honestly in front of everyone. To me, it's just a simple question of getting the specifics right. I've heard of folks who after being involved in the sexual predation have admitted to their part in it, have turned, and even tried to help those who were used in such a despicable fashion. I hold these folks in high esteem for being able to face their past actions honestly before God and people and prove that they are sorry and have had a change of heart. But as for me, I still deal with some strong emotions when I think of how I promoted this TWI sesspool, and I have no desire to be taken in again. As far as DIRECT INVOLVEMENT goes, I'm thankful that I am blameless, but before God I know that in the old days ONE PERSON tried to tell me the truth as I see it now, and I blew her off. Thinking about this can still move me to tears, (SNIFFLE) and shame. She was looking for help, and I didn't help. NOW I JUST DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER. Can anyone else relate? P.S. If any of you think that what you think of as healing will help me feel better, thank you, but save your breath. If I owe anyone an explanation it's that one woman or the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Until the day that I answer for it I don't really want your comfort.

Dear Rainbowsgirl, Maybe you tried before I edited the link to get it right. Would you let me know if it works now?

My Uncle sent me this link that has a video about this new robot. I found it to be both cool and a little creepy. I kept expecting two people to pop the costume open and say that it was a hoax even though a careful look reveals that it is physically impossible for two people to be hiding in there. http://www.bostondynamics.com/content/sec.php?section=BigDog

Dear Washn'wear and Rocky, I'm sooo glad that you are both with us. You're both in my prayers, and PLEASE take care of yourselves too!

hehehe That brings to mind "Athletes of the Spirit."

:) Thank you everone. :)

Yahoo right back at you Rainbowsgirl, twice.