JeffSjo

Not much time today, but here goes...... Dr. Wierwille still has many people that think highly of him. Many of these folks are sincere and wonderful people, just like many wayfers were in the old days. But contrary to sound doctrine, at Wierwille's direction TWI leadership became the worst group of lieing, infighting, backstabbing, anything goes as long as they maintain control group of people that I know of. IMO this is because Wierwille taught his disciples that destroying folks in order to maintain control was o.k.. To make it worse yet in my mind it was all done in God's name. When his disciples turned on him and shut him out it was because that is how Wierwille showed them how to act as Christian leadership. I've heard many stories here that portray Wierwille as some kind of thuggish tyrant anyway. I believe he did this often because he found that when he intimidated groups of followers that they were easier to control. The only thing left for Wierwille to do after his hand-picked leaders turned on him was to whine about how badly they hurt him, BAH, they only did what he taught him to do. I'm out of time today, bye for now and GOD BLESS.

I don't have much time today, but let me throw this out for consideration. If a group like TWI, my splinter group or any other seek to control everything and the people involved then there is a problem. The scriptures about God's will are clear, and as people I believe the best that we can do is live and learn from Him. But when someone takes control for themselves (or think they are in control) then it seems to me that human nature tends to bring out the worst things in those who live to exert godlike control over their subjects. I'm no fan of the word "cult", but in spite of that I think that people trying to exert godlike control over peoples' lives is a big problem. Experience has shown me that it can be an intoxicating place for the leaders to live and if they can throw around an abundance of scriptures while mixing it with an appearance of loving people that folks will be fooled.

IF YOU EVER FEEL LIKE RUNNING AROUND NAKED YOU SHOULD DRINK SOME WINDEX FIRST. IT'LL KEEP YOU FROM STREAKING.

A lot of this seems to apply to this thread too, so I hope you all don't mind me posting it again instead of modifying it.

I've been thinking about tis some more. Just about being a tool that is. Maybe if someone spends their religious youth and zeal on any organization with a hidden agenda and doctrines that they are a tool. The same might be said of being zealous for any organization with hidden, evil agendas. It doesn't much matter the nature of the organization; profesional, humanitarian, etc. In my mind the most common reference to being a tool, is someone who fools THEMSELVES into thinking that they are something that they are not. For instance, a man who thinks he's a ladies man but all the girls calls him a tool behind his back. This applies IMO to either gender who is into SOMETHING, but in reality does not get it. One of the keys for me right now in considering this matter is the question of blame. Does the individual DELIBERATELY LIE AND PROMOTE TWI's hidden agendas or not. Or were we SUCKERED into laying down our lives for a man like WIERWILLE who talked a real good game, but fed his lusts with the ministration of God's Word being the cover for his twisted and sick activities. One of my biggest concerns right now is that the victims of TWI abuse might think that they were tools. I do not want people who I've come to be concerned for to blame themselves when before God the blame lies with TWI leadership who knew what they were doing when they turned the supposed ministration of the truth into the base and vile action of doing everything that they could to convince the duped to participate in the cruel system that they set up and controlled. I do not feel shame for in times past promoting TWI when all that I did was believe their lies. I do feel guilt for the one woman who might have convinced me of what was really going on that I blew off though. I ask God for mercy for my stupidity, and I can't think about her without hoping and praying that she is o.k. How in that instance I was a TWI tool seems clear to me now, because it had a direct influence on another human being who in truth needed help. I have my doubts that at that time I could have really helped her if I had listened to her, but the fact that I spoke of God's Word being separate and above the actions of men while in an academic sense might be true, the fact that my words might have actually pushed her deeper into the TWI cesspool is hard to face. You see folks, IMO we cannot speak about the "good things" that were in TWI without being able to come to grips with the plain truth that even though we learned some bible, that TWI was a stinky cesspool that served Wierwille's lusts, including his sexual gratification and his desire for greatness. The doctrine was flawed, even when it comes to things that I used to think have not been understood since the first century. Some of those things I now to consider dangerous doctrines that only served to AID in the continued existence of the hidden cesspool of TWI practices. One clear example to me of that is how dispensationalism was applied. As it was applied it only served to negate many clear biblical references that if believed, would have helped many people see what TWI truly was. Now IMO the clear references to the the price that wickedness would cost the folks that did evil will yet be fulfilled. But NNNOOO, in TWI the gospels were not written to us, so even today TWI tools think that Wierwille was doing good when he abused women and girls while claiming he was only doing the things that God had called him to do. Or even worse for them, (the tools that is) they do not know how to face the truth that they consented to these vile acts of Wierwille's because Wierwille had made them HIS TOOLS! Going back to my first post in this thread, IT IS NO EASY THING TO COME TO TERMS WITH HAVING BEEN A TWI TOOL!!! (EDITED FOR GRAMMAR)

Dear Geisha779, I think that anyone that is honest can relate to being a tool. Thank you for your feedback and your kindness. JEFF

Lately, Ive been considering the very action of criticizing Wierwille in TWI circles. I have to admit that some of my opinions will be based on my splinter group experience. It seems to me that the splinter was an offshoot of TWI and many, many things that I saw with my own eyes simply grew out of TWI practice. My splinter group leader was excessively focussed on what people thought of him. Once, one of his chief thugsters (Yes, the same one that moved my wife and son, and kicked me out of the group) said to me concerning our fearful leader," He just somehow seems to know who to hold on too, and who to let go!" Since I later got let go, I think that I am in a position to form an opinion on how this worked. It seems to me that the only thing that counted to this head jerk was whether or not he felt that he OWNED you. A large part of this is whether or not he felt genuine affection from his ensnared disciples. Toward the end, I flat told him that I would mock him! This was about three weeks before they wrecked my life as much as they could. I'm certain from experience and an abundance of testimony here at the Greasespot that if I had told Wierwille to his face that I would MOCK HIM that he would have wrecked my life too! I'm certain that blind loyalty in the face of overwhelming evidence is one of the things that Wierwille encouraged and rewarded within the TWI structure. I'm certain that top TWI leadership would have been happy if fewer people were susceptible to the fact that Wierwille was a sick, twisted wreck of a human soul. But for the TWI faithful, as they were taught, to criticize Wierwille is blasphemy, what a crock. Even Jesus Christ didn't think that speaking ill of him was unforgivable. And now according to TWI practice and my splinter group's doctrine, everything hinges on whether or not you'd "give it up" for the bid dogs. (added in editing) I just remembered, my splinter group leader once accused me of ANALYZING HIM. All I can say is yes I did....DUUHH! And I'm really glad looking back at things that, that it's probably a good thing that compared to Wierwille, Martindale seemed like a transparent buffoon!

I really don't want this thread to have to retitled "How to deal with TWI tools" because pointing fingers is far easier than actually helping someone with a problem. It does seem self evident to me that if someone is incapable of dealing with THE FACTS of TWI history that there is a good chance that they may be somebody's tool. From me, if I was willing to say, "God will judge" in the face of much testimony and Wierwille's own words while trying to ignore things that happened I think that I would be a TWI tool. For those that not inclined to believe the real OBVIOUS scriptural remedies to sexual abuse and abuse of power there is still much that we could agree on by just recognizing sick, twisted behavior for what it is. The report that I heard of Wierwille saying "God will judge" as his answer to being confronted with Way Corps sexual misconduct I consider 100% reliable, and here is why. It came from my splinter group's fearful leader, and the way he said it was made it obvious that in HIS MIND Wierwille was justified in blowing off a member of clergy who brought this up in some kind of Corps meeting. Since my splinter leader thought that Wierwille's answer was justified, I'm certain that he didn't intend it as a slam against Wierwille when he told the story. It seems obvious to me that my splinter leader requires his disciples to be just as blinded as we were in our affection for Wierwille. I just think that the way he read the events he described proves that he is a programmed TWI tool. (edited for grammar)

Dear Raf, The more that I think about your post, the more that it's working for me. I've been thinking about an old poem entitled (I think) "Love is Brown." The moral of the poem is that we have to deal with yucky stuff if we are going to help people. I think that we have to deal with yucky stuff if we're going to help anybody deal with TWI also. To put the blinders on IMO is like WILLINGLY PUTTING A BEAM IN OUR OWN EYES, and then we won't be able to really love anyone. hhhmmm I don't like the crap in the crap sandwich, but it sure was there!!!

It still shocks me that this ministry that most of us trusted (at one time or another) became so adept at LYING that we have to sift through cover stories just to try to figure out what really happened. It kind of reminds me of the old lawyer joke that goes something like,"HOW DO YOU TELL IF THEY ARE LYING...........THEIR LIPS ARE MOVING!" In the POP it seems clear to me that the lie that TWI wanted us to believe that Wierwille was in total control, that he chose to die, and that most of us poor saps would just never understand. I have no evidence, but it wouldn't surprise me if he died as a direct consequence of one of the more twisted aspects of his life. (edited for grammar)

THERE ONCE WAS A TEACHER NAMED WIERWILLE WHO TAUGHT THAT THINGS WOULD BE SWELL HIS LITTLE GIRLS CRIED MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES,THEY DIED GEE, I GUESS HIS PAYBACK WILL BE HELL. I just didn't think this limerick belonged in the silly section. (edited to make it a limerick)

Dear Seth R., I would say that you not only didn't derail the thread, but seem to get it very well. Thank you for your feedback. I hope that things are well with you and yours now. Sincerely, JEFF Thank you Oklahoma City WOW 78, Those lyrics talk about moving on, and they seem to fit.

GROOOAAANNN!!!

I can easily relate to being subject to tools. In my case it was twisted disciples of our fearful splinter group leader. Once I had an experience that I think will forever give me an appreciation for the Lord's parable about the splinter and the beam. IMO unwitting tools have some form of beam in their own eye, whether they realize it or not. I was working on a new walk-in cooler for our fearful leader with a 18 year old young man. We were cutting pieces of oriented strand board while putting up walls around where the cooller would be and I got a splinter in my eye. I went to the two men who were overseeing the project with tears running down the right side of my face from the splinter. As they had been led into thinking that they were supreme as long as they kissed our fearful leader's butt, they made me stand there for at least two minutes while they finished up their oh-so-important overseeing jobs. I'm thinking, "OMG, just look at the gleam in their eye, and how much they enjoy me being in this predicament. Finally, they brought me into the main house on the property. They were obviously really enjoying themselves, trying to get the splinter out, but they were unsuccessful. Those to puffed up little..... left the room and I was there with the overseers mother-in-law. As she watched (let's call this woman, LINDA) I got the splinter out of my own eye. Then to my amazement Linda said to me with a lot of attitude mind you,"That was a very large splinter in your eye Jeff." I didn't say anything except, "The splinter is out guys, I'm going back to work." When I got back to work, the young man said something like," It sure was good for you that you had those two to help you with the splinter!" I answered(while keeping my good humor to myself), "They couldn't help me, I had to do it for myself!" The poor kid looked shocked, and the next time I saw the overseer, he looked like a whipped puppy. hehehe I wonder if that was a factor in the same man moving my wife and child out of my house and then telling me,"You are not welcome in fellowship until this shameful situation is resolved." WHEN YOU ARE SUBJECT TO SPITEFUL TOOLS, THEY WILL HURT YOU.

"NIETSCHI IS DEAD".......GOD IMO this was the funniest thing I ever heard over the airwaves, courtesy of Dennis Miller when he was guest hosting the Tonight Show.

I heard this on on a local Radio show. The guest was the president of "the Sons of Norway", who in this part of the country is a real class act, almost local royalty in some circles. "YA, WE'RE THINKING ABOUT CHANGING THE NAME OF THE GROUP TO THE SONS OF BITCHES......" (Stunned silence from the hosts) "DAT WAY THE SVEDES CAN JOIN" (IMO this was the 2nd funniest thing I ever heard on the air.) (added in editing) I'm half Swede and almost half Norwegian, so this scandinavian rivalry I've seen from both sides of my family. I think it's just funny, not insulting. How else could I get through either sides family reunions without laughing?

Well Oldies, How is it then that when refering to The way International that you can simply say, "God will Judge"? I still think that such an attitude is a TWI cop-out that started with Wierwille. Personally, Oldies, IMO attitude of proving EVERYTHING is easy to apply when someone is looking at others (especially when mixed with arrogance) but harder to do when the need is to examine one's own beliefs. But this is necessary lest WE become as those with the beam in our own eye that try to pick the splinter out of another's eye. (edited for clarity; spelling too) IMO those who try to beat TWI victims down are a CLEAR AND DAMAGE CAUSING example of being a TWI TOOL!!!

Paul was trying to prevent things from going like they did in The Way International. It's too bad that Wierwille wasn't up to teaching the scriptures as they were known in the first century. Many people wouldn't be dead or broken now. (edited for clarity) I have to leave now for a bit. If Oldies or anyone responds to this post, I'll read it later. :)

Oldiesman, Paul was attempting to teach the Corinthians to judge these things correctly. Not to ignore the wickedness and claim the Grace of God covered. Their glorying was not good, as Paul said. IMO neither is TWI tools who hold to the good and ignore the bad, while they do everything in their power to shut TWI victims up. This is how I feel about your unwelcome input in Rascal's post. If you had the descency to say something like, "Gee Jeff, I'm sorry that I stepped on your toes" before you tried to justify your actions I would feel differently than I do now. I've heard you and/or WD say things like "Butt out" or similar sentiments when you felt that you toes were stepped on, so you ought to know what it feels like. I feel that in this instance we need to be able to judge these past events and the repercussions that still exist today correctly. Paul wanted the corinthians to learn to judge correctly. IMO simply saying, "God will judge" without dealing with things as they really are is a TWI cop out that I first heard (albeit 2nd hand) of, that it came out of Wierwille's very own mouth when confronted with Way Corps sexual misconduct. That is why I believe that your attitude is still effectively carrying on in TWI fashion. Don't be a tool Oldies. (edited for clarity)

This is the most valid reference that I know, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." IMO this is not easy to deal with, but if it's true (I think that it is!) then what other choice do we have but to deal with it? (edited for grammar) Dear wordwolf, :) Does post number 40 bring it together for you? :) Dear Rascal, I don't think that "HE" will be happy with being a tool of the predators. Gee, if it wasn't prophecied of OVER AND OVER again in the scripture I would be really surprised, now it just hurts, but I'm not surprised. :( Dear Oldies, I would wish that the Lord is your reward then, but for me the scriptures as they apply to TWI don't paint such a rosy picture. IMO GARBAGE FIRE IS THE END OF THESE THINGS!! But still, I'm not your judge. JEFF P.S. Oldies, I'm still not happy about how you dumped on Rascal's communication to me either!

Dear David, I have no idea how this happened, but I'll assume it was done by someone who competant and in a position to do something about it. I have my messenger turned on now, thank you mystery benfactor. JEFF P.S. It may be that I turned it on without knowing what I was doing to!?

Dear White Dove and Oldiesman, The thing is, I wish that I could agree with you. Not to long ago I would have gladly stomped on (so to speak) any PFAL grad who wasn't thankful to God for TWI leadership. As I was led, I would have dismissed any claims of abuse as propoganda. I would have thought that the only noble thing to do was to hold on to the good and keep the loyalty to Geer that my splinter group taught. I would be aware that problems existed, but only mourned that things went bad. I would not have blamed Wierwille or Geer, because the TWI sentiment is that they did their best to fix things, but because of wicked men that crept in (See Jude) things went sour, and no man could have fixed it. Then I spent several years as the target of this splinter group's TWI-like machinations and lost my wife and my child. It's not that I didn't have problems, but IMO the things that I dealt with personally could have been handled by virtually any competant and loving Christian organization. My splinter group leader separated the group from their whole previous life and controlled every aspect of their (our) lives. While in control, they isolated me within the group and wrecked my whole life. My fighting back only served to make his control stronger because I was vastly outnumbered and the whole group was victimized by what I now recognize as TWI style crowd control methods that were first employed by Wierwille and his disciples Martindale and Geer. WD and Oldies, you may not see it this way, but I believe that you are holding TWI promoted attitudes that make you tools of TWI still. How can anyone say WE ARE ALL BETTER OFF in the face of death and abuse? I don't get you. In practice IMO the good stuff in TWI only covered up the sicko-psycho-abusive TWI style leadership. To me it's like keeping bailing water in a rapidly sinking ship. It can even be viewed as valiant, but it's proving futile.

Good point Bride, I think that anybody who would be effectively stand in the gap would also be the least likely to beat someone over the head with it. What a condescending bunch of smarmy self promoting ingrates. (ADDED IN EDITNG) WHAT, ME EMOTIONAL?

And if you will bear with me for a little foolishness to understand how I feel..... Are you rrready to RRRhumba!!! A guy can only take so many lies and so much hypocrisy before he has to fight back, after all. I still consider the best of PFAL as promoting a church where any belief is subject to proving, over and over if necessary. I still remember Wierwille saying things that painted TWI as an open and honest group, non sectarian, non denominational. I consider PFAL as being a good enough place to start learning about the bible, but there was much that was taught that needed improving. Then it became abusive, controling, manipulative, and sicko-psycho-twisted. Many people were hurt badly, or even died through the effects of abuse and neglect. I told my sister about the possibility of WayGB that they are scumbags, not mobsters, just tell them to f___ off if they come around. (edited for grammar)

In my splinter group, before they kicked me out that is, I made it clear that I would not witness to people and try to bring them into the fold because of how they hated me. My splinter group leader had a habit of looking right at me whenever he quoted scripture that was similar to,"I have hated every false way" etc. etc. Even my wife bought into hating me. I responded often to some lame and/or twisted new idea by saying something like,"Gee, why don't we try serving God instead." When I responded to their hidden accusations which they refused to confront me with with a scripture reference about the price of holding false accusations or hating the bretheren they usually had some answer. Once in response to my nudging this group to take care of the folks that were not doing well financially, the fearful leader responded by quoting the scripture that says,"The poor will be with you always, but I will not be with you always." I think this jerk will never willingly give up those who he's ensnared anyway. When I quoted,"Thy Word is as a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces," They responded with, "The rock on which we stand is the Lord Jesus Christ." It was a long, drawn out conflict between me and them, and my wife sided with them. But if they are wrong, then I believe that they will recieve the consequences that they deserve for their hatred, dishonesty, and twisted doctrines. This was my life before coming to the Greasespot. I'm sharing so that you can judge for yourselves why I see what I see now, when I look at The Way International (edited for grammar)