JeffSjo

Dear Waterbuffalo and Tonto, I'm already out of time today, so this will be brief. THANK YOU BOTH! I'm not going to reveal any names or places over the net in public because as twisted as my splinter leader is I've already seen how he can thrive on even false indications of his notoriety that he can use to further his control over that group. But without names there is a better chance of this actually doing somebody some good instead of him making it work in his favor. Thank you both again. I'lll see if I can share more tomorrow.

OHM MY GOD!

Thanks for that Rainbowsgirl!!! I don't seem to have much to say right now, but I will surely think on your answer now.

Dear Sudo, Actually, I think I manage my anger issues o.k., but denying that I feel anger and stuffing those feelings would be worse IMO. Especially if sharing the feelings that I have can help others relate and possibly let others know that they aren't the only ones. My splinter leader felt anger and was even cruel to animals, but presented himself in such a manner that he was thought of as a man's man within the group even though I made it clear that I wasn't impressed with my his story about kicking a puppy who piddled in his house across the room once. At another time, while leading a group of sheep he broke his staff over the head of an unruly animal, because it tried to walk ahead of him while he was attempting to lead them. Even my wife was caught up in admiration for this behavior. I was never out of control in sharing with my wife that I was angry with certain things they did, and I was portrayed as the one who was out of control with my anger. As far as "getting a grip" goes, I'm in my 40's and I've been forced to pretty much start over from scratch. But I shared that with my very first post in the new members section last November. "Getting a grip" is still a work in progress for me. Dear George Aar, What do I expect from religion? When I got involved with TWI in the eighties I expected to get involved with a ministry where the folks helped and loved one another, and kept biblical integrity. Even though many individuals I knew didn't let me down in this, IMO in TWI the creeps and the pervs ended up running the show and it pretty much went to hell-in-a-handbasket. In spite of what I went through, I still have faith. I do respect you for saying many of the things that you say here at the Greasespot George. But we definitely have different world views. Thank you for filling me in about Donny Fugit too. Dear Socks, Thanks for the appreciation. :) I just had to take my best shot at this TWI practice of diminishing the value of anyone who doesn't go with the flow. Considering someone to be dead IMO is carrying this idea to the extreme. Placing a once and for all excommunication if you will on an individual who leadership believes is beyond their control. I believe that Christ himself will someday cause everyone to answer for their actions according to the scriptures. For those in leadership who unjustly ruined others lives and knew that what they were doing was unjust, I believe that they will pay a steep price. I'll send you a Graesspot E-mail in answer to your last question Socks. ((((RAINBOWSGIRL)))) Dear TOMMYZ, I know how you feel about dealing with non-sensical leadership. A long time ago I realized that if they wouldn't hear the scriptures that their was nothing that I could do. As a matter of fact, I'm certain that if I ever responded to the extreme and unhinged provocations that they threw in my face with any kind of outburst that it would have given them the excuse that they were looking for to justify their actions in people's eyes. I realized that one of my splinter group leader's thugs was going for that once when he got in my face once, while in front of my wife, and told me to F___ recently deceased Grandmother at least ten or fifteen times in an angry outburst. Even as he was ranting at me I knew that if I made any type of physical reprisal that my marriage and my time in the group would be over and they would simply say that I was possessed and that I attacked a valuable leader within the group. But in the course of my divorce it was one of the things that happened that made it very easy to convince the courts that it was a good thing to keep my son away from them. My ex gave me the "thousand daggers of death look" as she was driving by me after that session, let me tell you. But my boy can't be with them, so I won that much anyway. I'm with you 100% TOMMYZ on wanting to do good now. ((((Excathedra)))) (edited for spelling)

I've heard things here at the Greasespot that indicate that TWI leadership went as far in condemning innocent people as to dare to declare them SPIRITUALLY DEAD. I never faced that during my time in TWI. But I saw this insane and harmful doctrine very up close and personally in my little splinter group. Once I heard a man sharing about his own daughter who was facing some type of challenge in regards to her spiritual education (so-called only IMO) that she WASN'T DEAD YET. This shocked me at the time that I heard him share it because the way that he said it made it clear to me that to this man, whether his own daughter was considered alive or dead had to do with the state of her "fellowship" with the twisted, bitter, and fearful man that led my splinter group. At the time he said it I already had a history of resisting any number of false and twisted doctrines that this man initiated to continue his own glorification as the leader of our splinter group. Even though they never said it to my face, I'm quite certain where I fell on their false scale of justice. About three or four weeks before he had me kicked out I told him to his face that I would mock him! The twisted bastard that I'm referring to went as far as to consider himself as the High Priest insomuch as it was taught that it was not right for him to touch any dead thing. How convenient for him it was to then declare that he wouldn't any more deal with me personally and have his pet toadies and thugs carry out my expulsion from the group. Words seem to fail me now to describe the anger I now feel at this false twisted doctrine that these folks hold by twisting the scriptures to their own purposes. How far did it go, let me tell you something that maybe someone can clear up for me. I've got to share something that I'm not 100% certain of, but 99% anyway. While in my splinter group, the twisted leader shared with everyone that Donny Fugit was dead. I've been racking my brain to be certain of this. I remember one dear woman that has the misfortune of being married to one of my splinter group's false prophets actually bawling when she heard of Donny's death. This is what I think happened in my splinter group in this instance, assuming Donny is alive anyway. I think that my twisted leader would dare to declare a man dead who was in truth much better than him. The reason he would do this is frankly beyond me. But if it served to glorify himself, I don't think he would stop at anything. I have heard stories about how Wierwille would totally control things at TWI. I have a hard time imagining that he could have been worse than my splinter group leader in terms of declaring these types of judgments upon people. No matter how this matter of Fugit's life turns out in truth; THE RUMORS OF MY DEATH HAVE BEEN GREATLY EXAGGERATED. (edited for grammar, spelling, and I added a little too.)

One thing about this topic that I continue to consider is the realization that in order for us to see and perceive these things there must have been a ministry that turned corrupt. I can only pray for and seek to support the victims of TWI abuse, realizing it must be a hard thing having had to suffer these things. In this case IMO the seeds for destruction for TWI were hidden in Wierwille's heart at the outset of the ministry. Looking back, it seems clear to me that Wierwille himself was hurt by the people that he taught how to rule. And even more, he seemed to feel it was necessary to distance himself from these bastards who were not nearly as skilled at projecting a convincing portrait of Godliness while simultaneously sating their lusts at many people's expense as he was. (added in editing) Dear T-Bone, Hypocrites indeed!

Dear Excathedra, VIC TIMIZATION!? That could be considered funny to me if I didn't know some of your story. I hope and pray that you are doing well these days.

Recently a friend asked me, as it applies to Wierwille, "How can we REALLY know what was on a man's heart?" As a Christian, I believe that the Lord himself will have the final say as to what was on his heart. Even if I was not a Christian, I would hope that I would consider it wise to not speculate too much about a man that I never even talked too! But I've been considering one scripture that I think is worth considering, no matter what your world view happens to be..... YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. As Wierwille has come and gone, run his course if you will, we have the right and responsibility to do our part and consider the matter. I think it might be boorish or even annoying for me to attempt to repeat the things that many of you know by personal experience much better than me what he was like behind closed doors. But I consider myself to be PFAL fruit, but I must admit that Wierwille was disingenuous about where he got his information and had no right to allow himself to ever be considered as MOGFODAT. It makes it appear clear to me what Wierwille's character was when I can plainly see all the puffed up, lying, brow beating, mind-game playing, life ruining, and blindly ambitious leaders that deserve to be considered Wierwille's progeny. YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. This was sooo well said IMO DWBH that it seems worth repeating as knowing them by their fruit, along with your up close and personal experience that I am so very glad that you are willing to share with us. PEACE.....

The same for me too! I'll look forward to our get together in the mean time.

I'll be able to be their at any time you all want to start it. I'll be looking for someone to set something officially (Dave I'm guessing) before I actually drive to Hinckley. If any one is feeling daring that day, I'll consider giving tours of my former splinter group locations. They are about 30 min. from Hinckley.

I believe that there will be no ultimate justice as it relates to TWI abuse until the Lord has HIS DAY. Until then a valid exhortation for a Christian soldier IMO is to "endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. ( II Timothy) In TWI it seems to me that Wierwille carefully nurtured an attitude that secular authorities were to be ignored or even thwarted IMO. If the U.S. government had a history of persecuting Christians as any number of other governments have in recent history I could understand it. But it appears to me now that one of the main reasons for this attitude was to hide his perversions. Many of the sharings here at the Greasespot make it clear to me that the laws that TWI chose to violate were not inventions of wicked secular men, but legitimate laws that are intended to protect the common good. I'm certain that Wierwille deliberately built an aversion to any authority but his into the "TWI group think." I've seen this with my own eyes in my splinter group. Three or four times before I was kicked out the leader boasted to the entire fellowship that if people only knew what he did in the ministry he'd go to prison!!!! After one of these times I heard him say to everyone within ear-shot that he felt he was battling all the forces of hell while he was sharing. Even though I believe this man is off his rocker, (so-to-speak) I'M STILL NOT CERTAIN WHERE THE LINE BETWEEN CRIME AND THIS MAN'S INSANITY ACTUALLY IS. But I am certain that he used this sentiment to build on his authority within the group, even though at the time I considered it a very foolish thing to say over and over again. White Dove, I believe that there are plenty of laws that would condemn Wierwille's actions in any court of law that are just and reasonable laws. And even though TWI appears to have for the most part thwarted the justice of the legal system, his actions will be harshly avenged by the Lord when the Lord has his say. Until then, I have heard more than enough for me to speak of these things as established facts. In the mean time, I may have to "endure hardness...." After all, a guy's gotta have goals. In the mean time, I think it would be a good thing to understand that suffering for taking a stand is actually a good thing, especially when the stand is not twisted by certain TWI leadership propoganda and practices. A Christian soldier (IMO) should understand this. Many non-Christians throughout history have paid prices for what they believe to be true, my hat goes off to them also. (edited for grammar)

Dear Nato, I guess that I missed something here on this thread. If there really is a substantive point that you feel that needs to be said, I'll be happy to hear from you here at the greasespot.

:blink:

That seems like a very relevant question about supposed leader's aspirations. IMO it is very unlikely that any of them would share as it relates to their ambitions. I became convinced long ago that my former splinter leader considers himself to be Wierwille and Geer's superior. His followers even reffered to him as "the Word in the flesh." I think it might be very interesting to compare this book with my splinter experience.

Hi Waysider, Thank you for starting this thread. I have to say that when I looked at it for the first time yesterday that I felt terrible about my misstatement of Wierwille's actions with his daughters. As it relates to that point, in the Christian Soldiers thread I still think that a real marines response to Wierwille's actions with his daughters would not change, and thus the essence (as you say) is the same. But in my splinter group struggles one of the things that I faced was the neccesity of quoting people correctly and remembering things accurately. If I didn't happen to be fairly good at that I don't think that I would have been able to make it through the seemingly endless mindgames that they threw at me. For the most part they couldn't say anything when I reminded them of what they did, because I had it right. This is why, when you pointed out my error, it pretty much wrecked the rest of my day yesterday, because these things are important to me. When someone contradicts eyewitness testimony they need to have facts themselves. Otherwise to me, they are just casting doubt on somebody without providing anything substantive themselves. In such cases, IMO most often, they are only disputing the witness in order to bully and/or limit the impact of the testimony. They are the ones whose motives need to be questioned as they are argumentative but not substantive. Style but no substance if you will.

Dear Rainbowsgirl, Thank you for posting this. IMO it is no sin to be a victim. I think it takes a lot of heart to recognize that the victimizers are victims too. But accountability is a lot different between folks who were ONLY VICTIMS and those who were victimizers too.

WD, This is how I think about this topic for what it is worth. We all have accountability before God for our actions. But by definition a Christian ministry is to help those who are looking for some kind of change of direction in their lives. since this is the case a ministry will deal with folks with all kinds of problems and they may need to learn and/or apply many new things in order to become a better person. When a ministry such as TWI becomes predatory instead of helpful then THEY SPIT IN THE FACE OF GOD by exploiting the same weaknesses that it is their job to help people overcome. Compared to TWI I don't believe anybody here at the Greasespot is spitting in the face of God. In my mind it is easy to draw a comparison between an honorable Christian soldier and headhunting savages. Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and doubtlessly others fit more closely to canabalistic tribesman than honorable soldiers IMO because of what THEY DID.

"and the tweezers for your splinter group" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Dear Kimberly, One of the points that I seeking to make clear in this thread was that even as a Marine I had the responsibility to evaluate the legitimacy of orders that I had recieved. This is a serious matter IMO and not to be taken lightly. If I ever was in a situation where I would have had to disobey orders, it was not in the Marine Corps, it was in my splinter group. Biblically, I believe my splinter leader had long ago, weeded out everyone who was willing to take a stand against his twisted leadership, in many respects I think that it is possible that I was the last one that might have been willing to resist. For years he carefully cultivated his control over his followers at the expense of good biblical workmanship, even turning my wife against me. In the end, I paid a price for my stubborness. But if I would have been willing to pay a price for disobedience as a Marine if the stakes were high enough, then I think that I did the best that I could in resisting the splinter group leader even though I paid a price for it. White Dove, I do not believe that the folks that I've come to care about are spitting in the face of God! And even if twisted TWI leadership gave rise to bitterness in some, Jesus Christ died for ME when I was an enemy of God, and God's goodness led me to him. Before I allow the accusation of "spittin in the face of God" to move me for or against anyone I'm going to do my best to be sure that the one who's using this rallying cry doesn't have his own head up his butt. This is the kind of thing that TWI used to do when they accused the wrong people of being possesed. Or when Wierwille wanted people to quit thinking about things and follow his lead. That is quite a feat, that a woman abuser could get good Christians to follow him anywhere. In my mind, even though I don't personally know any of the people who I've chosen to believe here at the Greasespot, I've heard enough to believe that such things really happened even if I can't personally verify everything thaty has been said. They seem to be speaking the truth to me, and so you saying "spitting in the face of God" seems to be the same tripe that TWI and my splinter group spewed.

Well WD, depending on how you apply this sentiment here at the greasespot, my waiting may be over...... Biblically speaking IMO the blame lies with those who treated the ministry of God's Word as a game where those who were not part of the problem were destroyed regularly and the abusers were sanctioned and provided for even until today. I still get mad when I think of men like Donny Fuegot, Ralph Dubovski, and Barry white who once were loving ministers but when they wouldn't "go with the flow" were discarded like so much garbage. In my splinter group this same attitude of obeying and honoring leadership at all costs is the norm. I believe that for whatever reason, you place too much responsibility on the victims and don't seem able to lay the blame where it belongs. Wierwille was a ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing. I like the "picture" of Wierwille that TWI painted, but IMO, if he was a Marine commander who discarded his best people, abused his men's wives, daughters, and granddaughters, and admitted to letting his own daughters fondle his privates; his own men would have shot him and the military authorities would have looked the other way.

Dear Yanagisawa, I probably won't take the time to read that. I would be interested in your feedback and how it might apply to the thread however. AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU GEISHA, OKCWOW78, AND DAVE.

O.K. WD, so what now. What's the Lord going to think of those who put down TWI victims who were bullied and/or fooled into following Leadership who were on the surface kind, but underneath were ravenous wolves who used their positions to exploit the very lives of those who Christ paid for with his own blood. And then to make it worse, point out that they were better/smarter than these poor lost saps who were abused in so vile a fashion. (As always, I hope my non-Christian friends will find it in their hearts to appreciate the sentiment if nothing else.) I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping, they only succeed in showing off their imagined success and provoke those who were despitefully used and abused. I think that these types fit very closely with those who thought they were rich, but in truth were poor, blind, miserable, and naked in the early chapters of revelation. In my experience they cannot/will not deal with their own heartless attitude, which is a pity, because someday they will answer for their heartless boasting which they did over the wounded and killed. As Job's miserable comforters, they cannot face the real wickedness that was done, and allowed to happen in the course of this world, and only seek to further blame those who were ruined and make themselves appear better than the abused. I hope that this post can be read without it being too personal, I'm just saying. Thank you rascal, I dare not make such a bold claim for myself. But i have shared that to the best of my knowledge I have a clear conscience. Even though Wierwille was a very skilled manipulator and succeeded in holding things together while he abused many, I think it's fair to say that if he was a marine commander in a combat situation who abused his men so badly that he might not have survived the inevitable "friendly fire" incident.

I was a United States Marine quite a few years ago. My time in service wasn't marked by heroism or outstanding achievements of any kind that I know of, but my discharge was honorable. As a Marine I always believed that ultimately, my loyalty was according to the oath that I swore to the constitution of the united States of America. As such, I always held in my heart that I may be required to disobey orders if I was ever in a situation where the orders were unconstitutional. this situation never arose in my life, but I was never too shy about sharing with folks how I felt. I always felt that if it had ever been necessary to disobey unlawful orders that it would be highly probable that I would have to pay a price for my principles because I had dared to disobey orders. I've heard stories of TWI leadership telling folks to do bad things and saying that they should obey orders. IMO this is wrong because a Christian soldier would be ultimately accountable to God instead of TWI leadership. In my splinter group I paid a high price for resisting twisted doctrines and bad biblical workmanship relying on God's providence and HIS ultimate blessing. WOULD ANYBODY HAVE ANY FEEDBACK ON WHAT I PERCEIVE TO BE AN IMPORTANT ETHICAL DISTINCTION AS IT PERTAINS TO OBEDIENCE? P.S. I'm already out of time today.

"HAAACCCHOOOO! Oh, excuse, me. I'm allergic to bull$ hit!" Thank you Watered Garden. This one was too good to not post here IMO.

Hi Jim, I hadn't heard that one. For me it's just another reason that I'm glad I'm not an advanced class grad. What a bunch of whooee that masqueraded as spiritual insight for us back then!