JeffSjo

Dear Excathedra, I wish I could help. You are in my heart.

Thanks again RumRunner and no problem, you're o.k. in my book. I've learned from and listened to all types here at the Greasespot. Dear Groucho, The same to you buddy! (Same sentiment as too RR I mean.) :) Dear Potato, It's really nice to have you back here at the Greasespot, it seems like it's been a while. I have to admit, I still want to call you Sweetpotato though. But as you wish. (added in editing) P.S. Potato and RumRunner On my part, I am open to new friendships, especially if they would happen to arise from good talks here at the greasespot. But I can totally understand why some would need the distance of non-personal contact that this forum provides. That being said, people that I would pursue a friendship with but decide to hold back is a little bit of a "what can a guy do" kind of thing for me. When folks try to tread on peoples right to anonymity here at the greasespot, well, it has at times perturbed me. As if any TWI victim has to enter the public arena for kindness and understanding. But when it seems that they only want folks to identify themselves in order to attack them, well, some of us may be willing to work through some of these in public. (hehehe) I often have told them things like, here am I, who are you anyway!? In my life, the folks who think that God has given them the right to belittle and destroy people have given me a lot of grief already. It wasn't until recently that I discovered this insane perspective was not unique to my splinter group, but in truth grew out of my former splinter group's TWI roots. IT IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF "WHEN SERVING THE MINISTRY IS SERVING GOD.....NOT!" (edited for grammar)

Personally, I wish that TWI and my former splinter group had a fraction of the ethics that some of you atheists and agnostics seem to have. They'd be better off IMO.

RummRunners post brings me back to when I first came to the Greasespot. When I looked at my life and the wreck that it was deliberately made by my former splinter group leader I could really relate to being made a Greasespot on the highway. Somewhere I had heard of Martindale's comments and they seemed to fit me, except it was not the world that screwed me over so badly, it was the so-called ministry. In my neck of the woods there seem to be some folks out here who wonder about my splinter experience, but folks who can really relate to it are few and far between. But the few genuine friends that I have, the one's who are glad to see me even though they don't understand that much of what I went through are very, very much of a blessing. Christain or not, they seem to generally be folks who have the decency to see that the nasty, backstabbing, life-destroying moves that my splinter leader first learned in TWI are dead wrong. Personally, the fact that such things were done in the Lord's name makes it seem far worse to me. I mean, that if I meet a stockbroker who has learned how to manipulate people for his own benefit I know why he does it, to be successful in business, he is what he is, I hold no grudge. But when someone poses as a Man of God and convinces folks that he loves them , only to destroy them for the most petty of reasons in the Lord's name, I GET PEEVED.

Thanks RumRunner, I'll check these links out.

TWI promoted the view that the folks that served were serving God. I would like to be able to agree with Oldies, but this is the rub the way I see it. I THINK THAT IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE INVOLVED WHO DESIRE TO SERVE GOD. God will judge their hearts and I am not big enough or wise enough to try to touch these things with a ten-foot pole. But where TWI breaks down is they have a history of nasty, backstabbing, power hungry perverts who do their thing and keep it hidden. So while many people desire to serve God the show is being run by twisted souls who subjugate innocent victims. I think that such leaders are in reality entirely incapable of providing sincere people the REAL EXPERIENCE OF SERVING GOD. But the most obnoxious troublemakers who were screaming about all the wicked hypocrisy that lived in TWI and were subsequently expelled may have been truly serving God IMO. I fear that since TWI is what it is, that in the long run folks' desire to serve God will be IN VAIN, that is judged to be a waste of time because as it says in the scripture, the commandments were not OF GOD, but of men with a thin, twisted veneer of scripture to hide the truth of it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! How about, If you don't let us control you we will destroy you.

Dear Oakspear, Mr. Waycorps was more than a conqueror then, except for clear thinking and a heart of love..... What the heck, except for a few deficiencies like that he could follow orders. Dear Waysider, That kind of thing is what really galls me about my splinter group, the motives of the man who rules with an iron fist in the center. I've told some of the locals that he was like the big, nasty, blood-sucking spider in the center of a web of very nice, sincere people. My ex-wife thought of him as a replacement for the father that she lost as a child and considers me to be the bad guy for telling her what was going on with him. My splinter leader just wants to own people, lock, stock, and barrel IMO. Folks went into debt beyond what the could carry for the priviledge of having this man take their families for his own. One woman actually told her husband to his face that this man was the TRUE FATHER of his kids. He was going to ignore it until I told him that he had to deal with it. As a reward this woman was "given the blessing" (Barf, wretch) of the likelyhood of her daughters being paired with my former splinter leader's sons. Dear Ham, So without insane leadership an organization can actually do good in a non-self serving manner and not take advantage of it's members. WOW, WHAT A CONCEPT :) Dear Waterbuffallo, Personally, I'm really, really glad that you are doing well. :) I don't mind that elder thing as much as the "Word in the flesh" thing as it was applied to our fearful leader. And the apostle, king, one who holds the rod of Iron, etc. etc. type glory that was reserved exclusively for him.

Let me say before I tell this joke that I used to play soccer (that's football for you non- United States readers) and coach youth soccer. I also believe that it is wrong to disrespect and oppress certain lifestyle choices that many cultured allow. But this joke seems sooo good that I hope that my disclaimer here is enough for folks to understand that I have no hate or prejudice in it and that I have no axe to grind any sport in general. WHAT'S THE HARDEST PART ABOUT PLAYING SOCCER? TELLING YOUR FATHER THAT YOU ARE GAY.

I thought it might be nice to start a new thread as this post is off topic in the thread that it came from. There was some discussion about serving God compared to serving the "ministry." Since I've come to the Greasespot I've heard many people share things like this post and I'd like to hear more stories about how serving God was not the same as tracking with Way International policies and procedures like mine. It could help me and others sort it all out. Another big factor in my concerns when this elder was telling me their plans was when he stated that with our numbers that lived within this small town's city limits we could dominate local politics. BARF (edited for spelling)

Once in my little splinter group the same elder that later fired me from my job after they moved my wife and son out of my house told me about an idea to help the community, well, specifically the town that was nearest their location. They were going to train chosen people to get involved with local government activities in the town. This elders own words were something along the lines of,"We could make things SO MUCH BETTER!" My gut reaction to this was that they were stupid and prideful to automatically assume that they could improve things for the local town that SO DESPERATELY NEEDED THEIR HELP. By this time I was operating with a fairly clear picture of how my splinter leader would use an incursion into local government affairs to expand his influence with his loyal disciples. Frankly, I thought that either the locals would laugh them out of involvement when they saw how my splinter group operated or, eventually my splinter leader would slowly turn town life into a living he!! for the residents, perhaps over five or ten years. I answered this elder after he finished telling me about their intentions,"GEE, MAYBE WE COULD ACTUALLY SERVE GOD INSTEAD." hehehe I could see that I burst his bubble, their plans never materialized. Frankly by this time I thought the town may need protecting from my splinter group leader. My former splinter group members would think that they would have been serving God by serving the intentions of the leader. But even little old me could burst their bubble, I don't think they'd stand a chance of thinking that if they were allowed to live outside of their super restrictive, oppressive atmosphere. I still worry that they could fool wayfers and former wayfers! (edited for grammar) P.S. I really miss the "Shout out section." I've gotta go now, BYE.

Why even Johnny jump up and Maggie Muggins (who are sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy) can see that with an indepth spiritual peception and awareness He's coming back to knock some earballs together and that He's not going to be mocked or spit on this time but will judge even according to the Faithful Word and therefore use TWI catchphrases as "fits like a hand in a glove" and Sharp as a bowling ball" in order to show TWI's carnal Christianity too the point where even a child can understand that even the sinner coming out of the bar has more fire in his belly than TWI leadership in their losing attempt to simultaneously speak the truth in love and be God's best when they sellout by copping out on dealing with Wierwille's sins because he was the Man of God for our day and time: (thhhppp!): THAAAT'S RRRIGHHHT!

THIS IS HOW I SEE THE APOSTLE PAUL COMPARED TO THIS LIST. AS FAR AS TRANSPARENCY GOES: He was very forthright in his handling of the scandal in Corinth, heck, we're still reading about it and considering it today. If TWI standards applied to Paul he would have hid behind decades of lies set up according to the wishes of stupid and mean men. He didn't seem to have a governmental agenda to speak of, but his dealings in front of the very top governmental powers were once again so open and transparent that we still read about them today. Once again TWI does not line up with Paul's standard!!! AS FAR AS BEING ACCOUNTABLE GOES: How wasn't Paul accountable? He was accountable for his bad actions before his conversion. He remained accountable for everything after, often spelling out to church Elders their accountabilities to God and men. He was SO ACCOUNTABLE that he openly used his very personal life as an example of accountability so that we can still learn from it today. He remained accountable for his own actions and never let go of the desire to help the churches overcome their own challenges. AS FAR AS ADVOCATING FREEDOM GOES: Once again in Corinth he acknowledged that their were differences of opinion in the church and a possible purpose for them. But then did his best to help them grow up and stop being so divisive and contrary. TWI and unfortunatley my splinter group is a bad, bad example of running EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF THE BIBLICAL STANDARD and the opposite of the intent of this point. They crushed my diisent to their rabid group think, bad doctrines, false prophecies all while keeping up the official opinion of what a bad man I was. AS FAR AS MEMBER PROTECTION GOES: Paul did not desire gifts. He taught that his desire was for the ones that gave were to be blessed. I think that history makes it obvious that for Paul this was honest, and not just another smooth saying by a con-artist that was looking to bleed people dry. DUUUHHH! In my splinter group they even bought a camp that they could not afford. Before they were forced to give it up the leader warned us by saying, "If I don't get to keep my camp, you won't like life very much!" Psycho bastard!!! And he said this to a group of people who had completely out run their own means of support and were PAYING FOR THE PRIVILEDGE OF BEING PART OF THIS SICKO'S FOLLOWING. I think that simply put, the kind of sexual abuse that happened in TWI is so freakin obviously the king of things that the prophets openly brought to light and reproved that I cannot find it in my heart to even remotely respect any other viewpoint. Period. AS FAR AS RESPECT FOR NON-MEMBERS GOES: duuuhhh! How many people does Paul put down besides the truly criminal? duuuhhh! I prefer respect for non-members to the kind of high minded, condescending, puffed up, deluded mindset that TWI and my former splinter group bred. duuuhhh! P.S. Well said Wordwolf!

Thank you John, I plan on referring back to your list as the need arises. I think it may well help me evaluate groups in the future. As far as my former splinter group goes, I fear that it has gone far, far past simply the simple correction of implementing the good guidelines on your list. Sometimes I wonder what the latest false prediction of the Lord's return is that the leader is using to whip the troops into shape. Since this man was even referred to as "The Word in the Flesh" over four plus years ago and they don't seem to show any signs of anything except getting pulled farther and farther over the edge from sanity, I fear that it will end badly. A leader like this IMO will not ever likely fess up to all his bogus doctrines and eat the appropriate amount of crow to help his own people recover. Thank you for the list though, once again. JEFF

Hi Kimberly, Personally, I still think that you are very kind! I'm really sorry for the things that you went through. They certainly seem to be on par with the very worst of the abuse that folks here suffered at the hands of TWI ministers. Speaking for myself alone, the whole issue of this thread, the credibilty of Wierwille's credentials is as I said before, the least of my concerns. But as much of this new info on TWI that I've heard here at the greasespot has helped me make sense of TWI and the splinter group that I used to belong to, I often feel fairly intense emotions. I'm quite certain that having this place to share (or vent if you prefer) them has helped me cope with the events of my life considerably better than most of the last four years of my life when I didn't have anybody to talk through these things that had much to offer in terms of useful insight. Biblically speaking, the Lord spoke very strongly against causing his folks to stumble and or be offended. I think he reffered to it being better to have a big stone tied to them and being thrown in the lake than to face the consequences of causing the children to stumble. After hearing of your stepdad I'm certain that he fits this scripture as well as Wierwille. Except that I'm guessing that Wierwille has adversly affected many, many more people than your abuser did. For me, I think a much better question than "What Would Jesus Do" is WHAT WILL JESUS DO!!! (to these bastards that is!) I talk about this because considering these things are a comfort to me.

Hi Waysider, I'd be interested in hearing other examples of Wierwille getting assistance from other folks too. But I'd also be interested in hearing how Wierwille spoke of them after their association was over. Another poster on another thread recently coined a phrase that is really working for me concerning him, sociopathic narcissist! the reason this label fits for me right here is that I remember Wierwille reffering to Pillia as a "sellout" after their time together and the fact that he wouldn't let anyone steal from his own spotlight seems to fit for me. Not to mention my splinter leader big-time.

Hi again Ham, Actually, I've seen a leader (so-called) do this kind of thing before. I think that the only thing that the victoid was doing was gaging Whiteside's response. Who can tell what kind of decisions vic made while looking at Whiteside respond to this. I'm certain that Wierwille already knew about his degree mill, I think the only reason he'd bring it up is to size up the one he brought it up to. IMO (edited for spelling)

I've never read his piece on the missions in India, but what did TWI become anyway? The mind games and manipulations that I suffered in my splinter group fit with the many reliable reports of TWI leadership behavior like A HAND IN A GLOVE! SLAVE TRADE!? For me this doesn't apply to India, it applies to the hundreds of abused women that suffered devilish behavior at the hands of the great scumbag and his children!!! MANIPULATIONS!? Why even here at the Greasespot I've seen Wierwille loyalists ganging up on one woman with such loving and gentle phrases like "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...." etc. etc. Much less how everyone here seems to have seen people falsely accused of being possessed or some such politically expedient false accusation. Wierwille himself implied that he would tell a woman accusing him of rape to GET OUT OF HERE..... (Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus) What a scum-sucking bottom dweller. His academic credentials are the least of my concerns, I think that we could probably find many fully accredited scum-sucking bottom dwellers out there too. But it is clear to me that Wierwille himself could have set the record straight absolutely any time that he wanted. He wanted the DR. in front of his name more than he wanted to be honest about getting it from an institute that later fell into disrepute, plain and simple. If he was who he said he was handling this would have been truly simple. If TWI understood what the Lord has promised to do to people that did the kind of things that Wierwille did, then and only then would I consider his students to even coming close to knowing the Word like it was known in the first century, but then there's still the Jewish issues, the rampant dispensationalism that hashed the Word to pieces, etc. etc.

You bet Ham, Like in my splinter group, the man in charge seemed to delight in destroying his enemies. Whether they threatened his greatness from the outside of the group or from the inside they were marked and destroyed in the most despicable manners, as long as it didn't leave them vulnerable to prosecution through the legal system. Guided by these despicable double standards of behavior, leadership was allowed to become a backstabbing force for evil through poltical machinations. I've heard you mention Machiavellian behavior and the double standard before Ham. I'm out of time now, I get back with you later.

Hi there Ham! From my own recollection and further info I've gleaned from the greasespot, this, in a nutshell (nothing personal Ham) is my new estimation of Wierwille's character as it touches his handling of his credentials. Even though Wierwille CLAIMED to be taught by God himself he seemed exceptionally concerned about appearances as it pertained to his credentials. To my way of thinking, if even a carpenter's son was called; oh wait a minute....... hmmm; the last thing such a man would be concerned about was the initials in front of his name. The fact that Wierwille got his doctorate from questionable sources and then never seemed to come clean about it seems to me to indicate almost a manic kind of need to appear official. Even though Wierwille was quick to put down the supposed great men of his time, he seemed to me to be obsessed with appearing great himself. Why else would he be pleased to be considered th MOGFODAT!? MY OPINION OF HIM AS IT RELATES TO THESE THINGS IS THAT HE WANTED IT BOTH WAYS, he wanted to be thought of as a man of God, and he had an insane amount of concern when it came to his own status in people's eyes. (added in editing) I consider the DR. that is in front of the WIERWILLE as a sure indication of his narcissism.

My former splinter group has had gun ownership and training of the youth in proper gun safety a goal. Personally, I do not think that they would be very good at intimidating folks with weapons for the majority of the gun owning locals in their rural area. Once, the member of the group that was given some responsibility in terms of researching the types and numbers of guns that they would buy got permission to rid the group farm of a pest. In spite of his supposed skill he took a rifle out of the box and without sighting or test firing the weapon he started shooting at the deer from close range, about fifty feet if I recall. He didn't even come close, but did manage to chase the pest off that day anyway. On another day the same elder that fired me from my job later was boasting to me of all the different weapons they have and the multitude of ammunition, with a view to convincing me that the fox that was at the time preying on the chickens was dead meat if it showed up again. After he finished I (With a completely straight face mind you) said,"So what you're saying is the fox has a fifty-fifty chance if it shows up." (snort, chuckle) Some time later he told me that after spotting the fox crossing a field coming in their direction several of them got their rifles out and unloaded many rounds in the foxes general direction, but that it ran of unscathed. Then with a surprisingly thoughtful look on his face acknowledged that the fox had about a fifty-fifty chance. And this is going on in a group in which the leader has told them that they would be attacked by the locals or the government, SCARY!!! Sorry for the off-topic part of this post, now back to the topic. For my splinter group intimidation tactics I've heard of all manner of intimidation of the general public even, mostly after I was kicked out and started talking to the general public. Most of it involved isolating someone that they wanted to work over to get their way. Most of the intimidation seems to be verbal, but there were a couple of thugs that could get in someone's face if they thought it would get them what they want. I consider it to the kind of behavior that a pack of jackels might be good at if they ran in packs and isolated their prey. Within a structured sharing the leader would work us all over by picking out someone to be verbally abused, and then share his supposed heavy- revy for the day. Once he yelled at his poor wife for about five minutes in front of us all for a harmless mistake that she made in the public kitchen while preparing food for a church meeting. For me the only thing that has held them back from actually physically assaulting people is fear of reprisals. I'm even now recalling many types of intimidation that happened to me and others, but I'm running out of time today. I think that all had inflated self worth at the delusional stage as an underlying factor anyway.

Thank you Twinky! Actually, what I've done here at the Greasespot concerning this guy, how I've shared and sought to help folks by sharing without giving him the lever of being to say that I'm publically outing him has helped me to chuckle about it to myself at least, more than once. I think that if I had the chance I might laugh in their face, but they've hurt many people too! There could be tears too, depending who I'm facing. Bye for now.

White Dove, How many of these abused women that you see never see any kind of real justice from the legal system in the United States? How many are too intimidated or too forgiving to go after the abuser? How many have tried, only to be out spent and out litigated by the abusers high priced lawyers? Personally, I'm glad to see this one abuser appear to have the long arm of the law catch up to him, but since you seem to be in a position to have some exposure to abused people, I'm wondering if you would be willing to share your experiential knowledge of your estimate of the percentage of incidents of abuse that see adequate reckoning in the courts. My slightly less informed opinion is that the percentage is very low, that is that many incidents of abuse never ever have a full airing in court. Would you dispute my assessment? (edited for spelling and grammar)(jeepers creepers, I need to edit it for clarity too! SIGH)

(((KIMBERLY))), Thank you for the concern, you seem very kind to me. As part of the judgment that my splinter group dished out at me they kicked me out already about 4 1/2 years ago. After many years of trying to help them keep away from the insanity that lives in the heart of the leader they moved my wife and child out of my house behind my back and kicked me out of the fellowship. Most of the time since I've been floundering on many levels, but my mostly lonely floundering time was still immensely better that the day after day mind games that they deliberately put me through over the course of a few years. Aside from being considered spiritually dead I've faced many obstacles while I was there. There were accusations that I was never even confronted with, but every time they seemed about ready to come to the surface I shoved them back down their throats, so-to-speak. I've been called virtually every bad biblical name that I can think of too. My first post in the "new members" section I shared that I was looking for a new start. It didn't take very long for me to perceive things going on at the Greasespot that seemed very similar to the beat down I faced while a member of this certain splinter group. All-in-all, I think my time at the Greasespot has been well spent. I feel that I have a much better handle on what went wrong, and why it went wrong than ever before. And I feel much better about dealing with daily life now that several things about TWI and my splinter group seem to be resolved. But once again, who knows where tomorrow may lead?

Keeping on track with this thread I only have one way to approach this topic on my mind right now. The whole spiritual death thing is only one tool in a faulty TWI arsenal that has served to attempt to silence opposition and bring the efforts of good people to nothing. It stands to reason that in my case, since my splinter leader is both insane and hypocritical that it is impossible for him to apply scripture to both of us with anything approaching fairness. His actions are worse than mine, but in his own mind he's special and deserves all the glory as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. But I submit that in many instances his twisted behavior is worthy of the destruction that he visited on my life. I'll wait for the Lord to do it to him all by himself, without any destructive actions on my part to the best of my ability. If I can help anyone in the mean time by sharing something then I am content. Revealing his name in public will only serve his ends by allowing him to get his pet toadies and thugs all worked up over the so-called persecution that they are facing. Heck, about two months after 9-11 he shared that we would be attacked by the locals or by government forces, and if we wanted to stand with him we had better be prepared to die! Because of his paranoid ravings people were even more behind him than without the prospect of persecution. I don't want to make it worse for folks who I still am very concerned about by allowing him to point out that I am PUBLICALLY impugning him. Privately TONTO, I'll send you a Greasespot E-mail. I've got my boy this weekend and his patience is running out. Bye for now folks, and God Bless.