JeffSjo

Dear Watered Garden, I have to agree with speaking the truth in love as a goal. I think that like most things in the bible it has been wrongly applied to situations where it does not apply. Even in the gospels there is a clear track record of the lord's disciples getting it wrong time and time again only to hear from the Lord himself. I think that learning how to do it right is a growing process for all of us. In TWI it seems to me that speaking the truth has often been discouraged in favor of lies and cover-ups. Since I believe this to be true I also think that any pretense of love in this situation is a lie too! I mean really, how can a sane Christian think that it's o.k. to honor Wierwille's memory at the expense of TWI victims. IMO that is not love, it's b.s. I'm with you 100% about speaking things in front of the children. It is sad to me that out of nowhere my five year old tells me,"Mom doesn't like you very much dad." But for my ex-wife, truth has been what my former splinter group leader has said for a long time, and he often said it at my expense and deliberately so. He deliberately moved my wife to hate me, as she once told me she did with a stealy glare and a cold voice. I answered her,"I know, that's the problem." (edited for grammar and spelling)

Dear Watered Garden, I like the sentiment, but in my particular case, I feel that speaking of these not-so-nice things has been sometimes necessary. Dear Potato, I'm not surprised that it was like that for you. It seems to me that when these tactics are used in "God's Name" and they are for nasty purposes that they seem ten times as bad as when they are simply done in a secular setting.

Like other threads I've started, this one could be in the Open section of this site, but I think that the conversation probably will turn to The Way International. In the decaffeinated section I posted about how my five year old son knows that his mother does not like me very much. I chose not to put her down in front of him for his sake and the sake of the kind of man I would like him to be when he grows up. Once she cussed me out right in front of him, but I think that he was too young for her put downs to have any lasting harm on his life, but I cannot control what she says in front of him, behind my back. In my former splinter group that as yet I feel needs to publically unnamed here at the Greasespot the craft of the put down was a very effective method of keeping people in line. And I think that these manipulations came from Way Corps training in TWI. In TWI I can recall times when all that was needed to keep people in line was that leadership simply let it be known that a certain person "had spiritual problems." Then it was understood that everyone who was in the group had been warned to stay away from a certain someone. I can understand that if a person is genuinely dangerous that folks might need to be warned off. After I was kicked out of my former splinter group I chose to let the locals know what was going on inside of my splinter group. Then they knew that the leader had told us that the locals or the government would attack us. Then they knew that the leader has been wrongly predicting the year of the Lord's return for qite a while. False predictions included 1997, 2000, 2002, and 2005 before they kicked me out. I also chose to give the locals several specific sharings so that they would not be fooled by the kind and good appearance that they work so hard to give people. IMO they have to work hard at it because what really goes on inside of that group is as twisted and nasty as anything that I've ever seen in my whole life. I was a little surprised but a little relieved to see that for the most part the locals were already aware that the leadership of this splinter group was nasty. While I was a part of this splinter group I was certain that they were talking about me behind my back too. But I've always been willing to deal with my own faults honestly. I tried many, many times to discuss my faults with them, especially when I was expecting genuine Christian love and help. But after it became clear to me that genuine Christian love and help was not what they were going to give me, that they were using and exagerating my faults against me. At times I was even forced to speak against flat out lies that were being spoken about me. Ater several times of me stomping their lies into the dirt (so-to-speak) they only talked about these things behind my back, so I never had a chance to stomp them into the dirt more. Now it's anyone's guess how far they might go in order to make a percieved adversary look bad, but I would wish that they had given me the chance to speak DIRECTLY TO THE THINGS THAT THEY SPOKE AGAINST ME. Without me being able to confirm or deny the things that they hold against me, I consider them to be a mix of cowardice and backstabbing. Certainly they've learned to manage people's opinions of me in order to keep people within the group marching according to the company line. I tried real hard to be up front with them first, only to have them move my wife and son out of my house and then have them kick me out of the fellowship. I think that my speaking about them and warning folks what was going on inside the group was just. If not just, at least I didn't lie. For the most part now, I relish the opportunity to speak directly to things that are being spoken of me, but for the most part gossipers seem to want to hide, and so do false accusers IMO. THESE TWO THINGS SEEM TO MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE TO ME WHEN SPEAKING OF OTHERS: #1 TRUTH #2 INTENTIONS The truth of things spoken of others can be nailed down most often I think, but it may not be easy. In politics very often both sides seem to be able to lie just as effectively. In this kind of situation, just like when LCM and Geer faced off in times past, even though things were intense, they both seem to be disingenuous liars to me. In these cases all I can say is,"Good luck finding much of any truth there." Intentions are even harder to nail down IMO. But when I've heard sharings about how LCM referred to someone as possessed because they were starting to show signs of not wanting to be abused any more, it seems obvious to me that if he couldn't use her anymore he would simply discard her. When Martindale answers to God for these things I don't think things will go well for him! ANT THOUGHTS FOLKS? (edited for spelling)

Dear Excathedra, Maybe it's time for you to try some friends on and see if they fit.

Hi Javajivey, I have to go along with Waysider and LiftedUp as far as TWI goes. I can understand your friends excitement because they think that the problems have been remedied and that things will now be good. Heck, who wouldn't want that. Bad gone, good now; it is basic human nature to be excited if that really happens in any situation IMO. But I wonder if your friends would reconsider if they realized that the ones that they choose to trust are still completely unaccountable for their part in TWI sins and have never, ever openly confessed their part in things. How could such leaders do any more than pretend to lead people to a place where a healthy dose of reality is part of the fellowship? Such leaders will not be able to help folks deal with their problems, they still are completely incapable of dealing with TWI history and their part in it honestly. I think the biblical prognosis will be that they all go into the ditch. But I'm hoping that you will be able to deal with it if they will not hear you.?

Hey Greasespotters! (supply your own sarcasm as you read)) Let's all just ignore the ones who were actually called possessed, Twi leadership did it to isolate them and they are/were the "spiritual authority." After all, their experiences were mere allegations, and the counter point that in reality exersized control and authority over them, well it's all over now..... they should just shut up and get over it. Nevermind that this thread is about a man that was ACTUALLY CONVICTED of child abuse, and that he had a history of such things in TWI fellowships. I think that if I read TWI leadership right, from their perspective it only proves that he must not have been SPIRITUAL enough in his abuse, after all, HE GOT CAUGHT! Never mind that in order for TWI leadership to continue to be successful in NOT HAVING TO ANSWER TO THE AUTHORITIES they've employed a slew of lawyers and used every resource at their disposal. They've had yes-men for decades who were in varying degrees either corrupted or cowed into helping them pull it off. Personally, if I heard of ANYONE WHO WAS SORRY FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND NOT ONLY OWNED UP TO THEM I'd give them every possible benefit of the doubt. For instance, I've heard reports that the ex- Mrs. John Lynn has been sorry and tried to help former victims. IMO she must be quite a woman for facing these things like that. But for you guys who try to hide TWI actions behind innapropriately applied legal principles OUTSIDE OF THE COURT ROOM, I do not feel the same way about you as I do people like the heroic ex-Mrs. John Lynn. You see, I'm as certain as I can be in my opinions based on numerous testimonials and my own recolection. And UNLIKE TWI LEADERSHIP, I have no direct authority over anybody to destroy them like leadership has done to many, many people. Me and the Greasespotters bear no resemblence to these bastards at all. And to you few that are comparing our actions to their's, TTTHHHPPP!!!

Hehehe Hey w.d. I would have thought that you would be better than this at reading the posts of somebody that you do this too. After all, I remember you boasting about how good you are at remembering posts. A lot of my life I've shared here at the Greasespot. I assure you, I'm not talking outside of my own experience. Dear Ham, You could go on if you wanted too, I'd enjoy it. But if you have to rest and all

When Twi leadership proclaimed sexual abuse victims to be "possessed" because they were starting to show signs of coming out from under their "spell" and then isolated them and destroyed their life they actually followed up their evil behavior with more. LIVES were destroyed by wicked, bloody hands. When TWI victims despaired to the point of suicide TWI leadership had bloody hands. When TWI leadership kicked men like Ralph Dubovsky out because he had the courage to say,"Dr. was wrong" to LCM leadership just continued their bloody rampage in peoples' lives. When TWI leadership would rather see people suffer than change and supply then necessary remedies, they are at fault. IF TWI LEADERSHIP AND YOU TWO THINK THAT THE GREASESPOT IS TOO ROUGH FOR THESE FOLKS THAT YOU TWO FIGHT FOR, JUST WAIT UNTIL THE LORD SEES THEM UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL LIKE; THEY HAVE BLOODY HANDS. In contrast, the apostle Paul did not. THEY CAN PAY THE PIPER NOW, OR THEY CAN PAY LATER, it's their choice. Still, you two have some ability with words, IMO it's just your perspective and the substance of your points that seem lacking. (added in editing) Hi Bride, non of this post is directed at you FYI.

It seems to me that TWI might not enjoy God's Word being spoken as it relates to what they have been/are. But then that is not too uncommon in history or the scriptural records either. Gee, I thought the believers in this or any other country already have a savior. :blink: But with such a self-important view as they take IMO it is very highly unlikely that much of anything good will actually happen. They'll probably be shouting there victories whether real or imagined from the roof tops however..... wait.....thats not what they should be shouting from the roof tops, is it?

I read the Lynn letters. Does anyone know if during those years where he was being encouraged to take part in TWI sexual shenanigans, did he ever try to change things for the better? Did he ever confront Wierwille? Did he ever lay his life on the line for the sake of God and the TWI victims? Without these answers it all appears ssooo self serving on JALVIS' part. I cannot hardly believe that JL gave himself that nickname. That's what DWBH said Lynn did. I don't think I would have liked the kind of Marine officer that Lynn might have been. But maybe Wierwille broke him!

I can still remember the process and many events that slowly convinced me that the leader was off his rocker in a bad way. Many people still consider him the shepherd of the sheep for them. I mean about 150 people to give you a sense of it. It seems like many to me because I know them all. The leader keeps all the credit and all the control. He has lied and prophecied falsely many times. He is capable of completely crushing a persons heart and having them thank him for the privelidge of being "shepherded" by him at the same time. The mind games that he and his toadies threw at me could have and to some extent did break me. But their evil is o.k. you see, because it is being directed by their apostle and is only spiritual warfare. I've seen him play husbands throught their wives. I've seen him play wives through their husbands. I've seen him convince my wife that I was "SHINY." I've seen him isolate children from their parents under the guise of "spiritual training." I've seen him boast about his notoriety to the church even though he has virtually no notoriety or credibility with anybody as far as I can tell. I've even seen him try to get a couple to give up their retarted son for adoption because the child was "not worthy" of the shepherd's care. (I'm getting angry now.) Then he manipulated this man to close down his business in order to repay him for this disobedience. I fear for Mike and Donna. YEAH, AT LEAST IF THEY EVEN COULD MANAGE TO APPEAR TO FOLLOW THIS LIST THAT THE FOLKS THERE WOULD BE MARGINALLY BETTER OFF.

I've been thinking about a few thinks about this thread. It's about someone who has been convicted of the crime and now must do the time. Who knows, maybe he will end up like the wrongdoer on the cross that was next to the Lord. That wise man knew that he was suffering justly for his crimes and that the Lord was innocent of wrongdoing. Then the Lord gave him that great promise. It has been one of my favorite records for a long time now. As for those who have not yielded to the authorities for their crimes and think that the Lord will praise them, what fools they are! With all ther stories about TWI leadership ruining lives by folks here at the Greasespot because of stupid, unfounded, and false accusation that I've heard I think that we would understand how ugly false accusations can be. It seems evident that anyone who thinks that they can tell us about false accusations is a little like trying to sing to the choir when they can't even carry a tune.

The Way International has accused many people while they hold on to their twisted idea of spiritual authority. In the O.T scriptures it is the elders of Israel who were commanded to search out diligently the truth of accusations. My splinter experience along with the sharing of many people here at the Greasespot is that TWI destroyed many, many lives on the basis of false accusations alone. TWI leadership was responsible to carry out the LOVE that was behind these plainly stated OT commandments. Instead they appear; and quite convincingly IMO; as a bunch of copped out, puffed up, terds that have not, nor ever have yet faced the truth of the actions of Wierwille and his hand picked progeny. TWI leadership and others think that the internet is an bad place to diligently seek out the truth of these things. I think that it is a good place! Personally, I'd prefer face to face but with all the "How to make friends and influence (er, I mean manipulate) people" crapola masquerading as following Jesus Christ and TWI's army of lawyers always ready to intimidate TWI victims I am especially thankful for the Greasespot and any other places like it out there. period So while I share in the sadness at the damage that false accusations can inflict on any person or organization, I also know first hand how puffed up and evil leadership can be the worst offenders in this category. Dear Deciderator, I find more than enough credibility here at the greasespot. there are many impartial sources that quote many of the things that TWI leadership has said and done, just look around some more is my advice to you. And I'm sure that many people that I've come to respect based on the content of their posts are more than capable of handling the issues at the Greasespot far, far better than those selfish liars that led TWI ever could. And so I find the emotional sharings that accompany the realizations of these things to be just. AS FOR LCM, GEER, ROSIE OR ANY OTHER LEADERSHIP THAT ARE ALIVE, LET THEM COME TO THE GREASESPOT AND DEFEND THEMSELVES. Chickensh!t bastards that I think they are I don't think that will happen, but I'm quite certain that Paw will not close that door Deciderator. I value presumptive innocence, but TWI leadership has not valued it for a long, long time. Not unless they were trying to protect one of their own.

Dear cheranne and friends, It got more twisted and wierder than that. Later on if anyone else other than our fearful leader had anything to say his most loyal followers would do a nudge, nudge, wink, wink kind of thing by saying something like,"lucifer means SHINING ONE." After that "SPLINTER SPEAK" was well established in their group think all they'd have to do as say something like, "boy, that was shiny." So anything that anybody else said was disregarded not based on merit, but it was called devilish because it didn't proceed from that "word in the flesh" guy that they allowed to have complete dominance over their lives. This whole "shiny" thing was not way speak, I'll call it "splinter speak." I wish I could "shout out" (nudge nudge wink wink PAW) a good bye. I've gotta go to work.

There were some events in my splinter group that seem to relate to the honesty issue. It may seem odd to some of you, but all I can say is that when a small group of people cut themselves off from everyone and everything else, the subtle (or not so subtle in this case) undercurrents can get weird and twisted. The within the group discussion was concerning lighting a room. A roomate of my wife and I pointed out that I kept the house too bright, and she explained that softer light and darker areas within the room was a more comfortable lighting scheme for her. I went with her inpute, but also started joking around that it seemed to me that I might prefer lighting a room with huge floodlights and a large industrial style switch, and that I didn't want any shadows in the room at all. By the time this line of discussion was played out my splinter group leader layed out the soft lighting scheme as if it was church doctrine and folks seemed to go out of there way to point out to me how much better the soft lighting scheme was. I think that they were right about the soft lighting scheme and did from shortly after the first time that the whole thing was brought up to me. But their overwrought response to my joking around was IMO COMPLETELY INSANE AND UNNECESSARY. As much as I don't like spiritualizing simple things, I still can;t help but think that my splinter leader who boasted three or for times in front of the whole group," If people only knew what I did in the ministry I'd be sent to prison" probably has grown too fond of his dark little corners! (edited for clarity)

Thank Potato, It's kind of amazing to me how quickly that I seem to get the feel for what TWI became even though I never saw that during my brief time in TWI. I'm certain that is because my long association with my splinter group prepared me to be able to get what they became, after all, I've seen most of this stuff real up close and personal like already.

Hi Socks, In my splinter group, the leader openly sneered at the concept of being honest. It was sometimes when issues that I was concerned about had been brought up for consideration. His pet toadies and chief thugs unfortunately picked up on the same sentiment. To me, honesty as the sane world knows it, is a necessity for accountability and transparency. I think that it's great that you point it out, but the way I see it, with groups such as TWI and my splinter group, they've gotten SOOO DISHONEST that any presentations by them that say that they are honest are to be disqualified for serious consideration because of the lying nature of the source. IMO their proffesions of honesty are just another self-serving spin.

(Pretending to speak for TWI, heavy sarcastic tone.) B-b-but, we've got this really cool theme...... No, it's really o.k. now, we've changed...... You ask, changed from what exactly...... Our lawyers have advised us that we cannot answer that question.

Dear John, I've always heard about dear John letters, I've never written one before. I just love your list. Personally I think that it's sad that some feel that such good suggestions are too restricting on what they feel is a movement of God. Especially when the scriptural examples line up so nicely with your list and sentiments from what I can see. I don't know how you feel about the scriptures and I don't see any real good reason for me to ask, but I like the way that your list lines up with them no matter how you feel about the scriptures. JEFF

Gee, the squirrel was safe in the lions' den. :blink: Will miracles never cease?

It's like this for me Twinky, I'd rather reason with a non-Christain who has a clear conscience as it relates to helping people any day than a bunch of copped out hypocrites that still pretend that they serve the Lord. It's no small wonder to me at all to that there are so many scriptures point to how bad it is when believers' actions cause folks to disregard God. But what is still kind of shocking to me is that I don't blame the honest folks who rightly point out all the nasty, vile, and downright murderous things that Christianity has done over the centuries. But it stands to reason IMO that if someone who does such nasty things makes their boast in God and the scriptures that they need to be able to face what the scriptures plainly say about these things. I don't think that anyone who doesn't make their boasts in God and the scriptures has to face these things in the same manner as a Christain does. Because however things work out for them in the long run, at least they didn't make their boasts within an ethical framework that also condemns their action.

It may not be a sentence Excathedra, but you outdone my best attempt by almost for million times.

This is one of those posts where I feel it may be needful to start with a disclaimer for the non-Christains here at the Greasespot. I don't look down on you, period. But I'd just like to provoke my believing but not-so-friendly co-posters. I hope you can find it in your heart to ignore the implications that you may percieve in the rest of this post, I don't intend to put you-all down. But simply to share with my fellow believers where they stand IMO. I don't even have to think hard to remember that there are quite a few scripture that make it clear that when believers corrupt ethics are made plain and it causes the unbelievers to be ashamed of what they are doing it means that the believers ethics are really sucky. DUHHH! TWI leadership boasts that they are capable of teaching God's people, but their history is nasty and vile behind the scenes. They've lied about it for several decades and have tried to silence or nulify the testimony of TWI victims. I suspect that my former splinter group may be doing the same thing behind my back. I already know that they are capable of it. I've seen them do it to others, who looking back at it, the folks that my former splinter group taught it's followers that it was o.k. to despise were in truth, MORE JUST IN THEIR POINTS THAN LEADERSHIP HAS BEEN IN THEIR HANDLING OF THE SAME ISSUES. IMO if people like dear Mister P-mosh are correct in pointing out how TWI leadership has copped out on it's responsibilities then TWI LEADERSHIP should rightly BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES. YEAH, EXCEPT FOR THE CORRUPT, COPPED OUT, AND MANIPULATIVE PART OF THEIR DOCTRINES I THINK THAT THEY ARE JUST A SWELL BUNCH OF PEOPLE. I do not think having a catchy theme will help!

Well My3Cents, If there ever was a way that someone could come up with a quick method of helping me determine WHO NOT TO VOTE FOR you may have found it. Who does TWI want me to vote for? I'll very likely vote for their opponent.

I give it two groans up.