JeffSjo

Well Miketheorganist, It seems to me that you've recieved quite a bit of feedback. IMO it seems to be well thought out and on the "patient forbearance" side of things too as far as the tenor of things directed right back at you. But I hope that the idea of this "lack of forgiveness" that you percieve is in truth part of the healing process is catching on with you. In general IMO the bible stories are much more truthfull about sin and the consequences of sin than most Christians seem to be able to face when looking at other peoples' situations. And the exhortation to "forgive all" is often a misplaced (as far as actually doing anybody any real good that is) attempt to just not look at UUUGLY right square in the face. When I consider the UUUGLY side of TWI as told here at Greasespot things from the bible come to mind such as "judgement by fire", "their mouths must be stopped", and "I will remember" as stated by the Apostle John. In many respects I feel that things are much more real here than in any other place that I know of that considers these things. JEFF P.S. You weren't just bating us, were you? (IMO a fair question, no offense intended.) (edited for spelling)

Dear Steve, I'm very sorryto hear about your challenges, but I am glad that you've made headway as far as the old teaching on believing so that you are not condemning yourself for your health challenges. I for one am not condemning you either. From my perspective it is easy to be critical and hard to actually help. When I read your comments about the doctrinal section it was simple to think, well...Steve thinks that things have went down hill, but what can he contribute? But now, I certainly would not expect you to contribute something that is outside of your physical capabilities. As I said, I haven't been over in "doctrinal" for a while and don't have much of a clue as to how things are going. But when I was in doctrinal it seemed to me that some folks were engaging in some good discussion. What I remember looking back at my time with TWI is that the idea that we knew the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century is mostly fiction. If God ever gave Wierwille a conditional promise concerning knowledge of God's Word it seems obvious to me that either Wierwille absolutely and completely blew it or that it never happened. I am content to wait until the Lord has his say to say that I'm certain, but either option still seems like a valid opinion to me in the mean time. For folks who are still caught up in thinking that TWI "has it all" I think that for them perhaps most of all the Greasespot has something good to offer in terms of holding forth many facts and perspectives that could potentially help someone come down from what I now consider to be a falsly inflated opinion of TWI and sometimes the value of their own mininstries. Even though I don't personally know John Lynn, I've heard enough to think that it's possible that he could be benefitted by having his beliefs at least tweaked or even revolutionized by the many facts and considerations here at the Greasespot that rightly run far, far outside the box of the old TWI ways of thinking. Shees, I've heard that he nicknamed himself JALVIS. I'm sorry, but I cannot think any good way to think of Lynn and "The King" in the same context.....

Hi Steve Lortz, I think that is the first post of yours that I've ever read. Much of what you share scripturally concerning your speculation as to what was going on in Wierwille's heart are similar to the things that I consider also. It sounds like you've been around TWI for quite some time to me and your post is something that I'll consider for a while, I'm sure. I think we'll both agree that when the Lord has his say as to the specific things that occur in mens' hearts that the hidden things shall be revealed and that He'll have the final say. As to the doctrinal section Steve, I haven't been in it for quite some time even though I've been around other areas of the site. But in general it seems clear to me that you consider yourself capable of improving the situation since you feel that it has "disintegrated." How about you get busy posting in the doctrinal section to bring your perceived potential improvement of the doctrinal section and we shall all see how things go then..... JEFF

Thanks Waysider, Now it makes sense. Dear Twinky, Just to be clear, I think being a good diplomat is a very difficult job. I just simply had to take the shot.

Hey Twinky, I think that politics could be a lot more entertaining with more sleghammers. But the fact that TWI is teaching diplomats is flat out scary. We don't need our diplomats to get even better at shades of gray and spin after all. (edited for spelling)

Wow, some of you guys have been considering this stuff for quite a while, I'm glad this thread got brought to the front just so that I could read it. It never ceases to amaze me how someone (Wierwille) that I thought of as a man-of-God was in fact so inept at simple honesty. If claims are not backed up by the facts then they are b.s. IMO. Who would want to believe in a God or a supposed man-of-God that was dishonest and stupid, not me. I'd rather be honest about my faults and adjust doctrines boldly when they are found to be lacking. (edited for spelling)

No big deal John, I'm just glad that you seem to have the right tools to help folks here. I hope that as things progress, they go well. JEFF

Dear doriangreen, It looks to me like you already know enough to stear clear of the potential traps that are present in this TWI fellowship. Especially in regards to percieving that your roomate needs help with this sleeping around issue. Just like the things that you've already read here, don't be decieved!!!!! This sleeping around issue that you see with your roomate is just the tip of one foul, stinky iceberg that is The Way International. No matter how strong you feel about what you believe, I'd councel caution, biblically this casual sex thing is something to run away from. I know by experience that once the hook is set it can be painful to be removed. Personally, I bet that many people here would be willing to go with you to make sure that it's o.k., but only you will be the one to decide for yourself. Take Care, JEFF

What, and admit that in spite of all the hype that most of their work is substandard. That'll be the day.....

Way to go Ham, congrats!

Hi John and you are welcome, For me it just makes it plain that you've practiced what you preach. I think you getting your gumption up for that post was a very good thing. JEFF

Wow John, From your first post that I read it seemed to me that you had a pretty good handle on these relationship issues that you discuss. Now I know why. Thank you for sharing. JEFF (edited for grammar)

Dear Excathedra, Your sharings have had a huge impact on me from the first. Thank you, thank you hon. JEFF

Dear John, (small chuckle) For me it's like this here at the Greasespot. There have been many folks that blessed me a lot with their posts. There have been folks who say that they are lonely or hurting too. Every time I read something like that I feel some compassion and I wish that we could talk in a personal and maybe private manner. I'm probably not in a place to actually help too much, I'm still looking to get back on my own feet right now. But it is not for lack of willingness on my part. I think that TWI leadership was so dishonest and harmfull that many people here have a hard time taking anyone at face value. And with many of the issues being hard to deal with in the best of circumstances and with the best of friends even that it is too easy to endlessly search for false motives in someone when the possibility of a real human contact might be a good thing. I don't hold it against them, it just gets kind of old. I see the possibitlity or friendships with a lot of folks here. But I guess that after being damaged by a ministry that was apparently started by a predatory sociopath that I can understand why simple things might seem harder than necessary. And many of us carry the same mannerisms that for others are a reminder of hurtfull TWI leadership. In general, I believe trust needs to be earned, and for the damaged that is something that is not earned easily. JEFF

I'm working on it, but I may be out of time now. I'll get back to you on it.

Thank you Excathedra, The same RIGHT BACK AT YOU!!!

Hi John, I hope things are well with you. For me, one of the things that make interpersonal relationships hard is my history in my splinter group. For years everything that I did was scrutinized and proved. When they couldn't find anything wrong with my points it seems that they settled on being able to completely wreck my life and put me down. This went on for years as Isaid before. Now I seem to be pretty quick at picking up on it when folks are not being transparent. Often times it is when they simply throw verbal feelers out to see where I am at. This usually is boring and annoying for me to deal with, blech. They usually simply are not as smart as they think they are. But as many of us picked up in TWI, this is how things were done. And if an individual is "caught" in this mode of communicating they won't be "transparent" themselves then the relationship disfunction is pretty much unbearable, or at least disheartening to me. When I consider the possibility of acredited counselling, well as a prospect I feel that it is good that you are transparent as to your intentions. BRAVO JOHN! At least we all know what to expect. But when folks that I would just as soon be friends are caught up in cold, calculated, and ameturish analization and speculative communication with a fearful undertone after their TWI experiences I find it understandable yet a little disheartening. My tansparent strategy is to continue being tranparent. PEACE, JEFF

I'VE BEEN HERE AT THE GREASESPOT A YEAR NOW FOLKS. I've just printed out all my posts and many of the threads that I've started. I'm might be in my cave for a while as I consider where I've gone in the last year. Bye for now. PEACE JEFF

I suppose that TWI never had a patent on double speak and selfish scheming.... my splinter group functioned the same way. Heirachies are carnal, but we have one. The leader owns nothing, but makes sure that he OWNS everybody and rules with an iron fist. We love people, but will only teach them the bible if they pay up. We will be commited to you, if you give your belongings, your children, and your very life and free will to us. IT IS LAYER UPON STINKY LAYER OF STINKY CRAPOLA.....

I remember in POP that geer gave Wierwille credit for being afraid of selfishness. What a freakin understatement that goes strait past understating and into the category of bald faced lie. Gee, except for keeping all the glory to be had, the abuse of women and the men he crushed in the act of abusing women, the refusal to except just reproof and then putting down the multitude of messengers he was pretty close to altruistic.....huh?

So how does irony set with you these days Twinky?

After Waco went down my former splinter group leader said about Koresh and his church," Something good was happening there." I think that Koresh's twisted and sick views about how to relate to other men's wives and children actually impressed him. But since my former splinter leader liked it when someone kissed up to him by calling him a true son of Wierwille it does not surprise me that he said that at all. Sometimes I wonder about folks that hold Wierwille so dear that they would actually try to kill someone and think that they were doing a good thing. In my mind it is not a big stretch from TWI's circle the wagons attitude IN SPITE OF THE TRUTH ABOUT WIERWILLE to someone going postal. But IMO such things that are simply fears shouldn't stop the truth. Heck, I bet Obama has had plenty of threats, and he's a politician.

Dear Modrocker, You are quite right, thank you! Dear Brushstroke, Modrockers response has me re-evaluating things. How are you doing? In my mind there is a huge difference between your friend and my former splinter group, not to mention TWI. The things that will help them at this point I believe need to be harsh. My rants are not directed at my boy's mom however. JEFF

Please pardon me folks for re-posting this here. I'm running out of time today already and even before I got here today I couldn't make up my mind about which thread to post this content. How about both?!

This is the TWI top leadership game (part of it anyway) the best way that I see it. A lot of my perspective comes from my splinter group experience but fits many of your TWI stories IMO. When Wierwille was in charge, he was the only one that was allowed to have real love and loyalty given to him. But it was inevitable that folks learned from him how to own people like this. When a leader owns the complete love and loyalty of followers anything spoken against him/her is automatically heretical. Substance is put away because for a carnal leader, playing the top dog game was more effective in terms of numbers and feedback. When I was thinking this weekend about how my former splinter group leader has trained young women to defend him it almost made me ill. What a waste of a life, to be trained to give a sincere yet knee-jerk defense for a man who is a false prophet and a destructive s.o.b. like this guy. But they think they love a man of God..... BARF. A while back my splinter leader's second in command said that in his opinion that most of TWI leadership's problem was that after Wierwille's time that many leaders sought to have their own followers like Wierwille did. This is a very good opinion to be taught to a second in command I would say! But I say that TWI leadership just did what Wierwille did. And that it seems to me that my former splinter group leader is comparable to Wierwille in terms of method, even if the number of the deceived is not comparable. The reports of how JAL has acted seem very, VERY familiar to me, blech. I'm serious about the nausea, it was hard to think about the things that I've seen done to decent people simply to promote the kingdom of a twisted man.