JeffSjo

Good post Geisha, When I think of "The joy of the Lord" I think of Caleb and his family standing over the giants' dead carcasses and singing praises to the Lord for the victory. Or the prophetess Deborah singin praise to the Lord after the Lord trounced the enemies as Barak fought them. (As an interesting side note what the Cannanites were doing to the Israelite women wasn't that much different than what Wierwille did. At least the Cannanites didn't do it in the Lord's name!) IMO what TWI did was to harness these emotions and scriptures to fight honest and good people to the point where they lost everything. The same goes for my former splinter group. When these things are harnessed by any religious group they usually lead to some kind of deluded and destructive force. Historically, the crusades seem to fit too. When to fight and when to forgive is one of the things the the Lord Jesus Christ had to confront his own disciples onn. Once he told them that they didn't even know which spirit that they were of. At another point he told his disciples not to fight, but told Pilate that if his kingdom were of this world they would fight. I think we are talking about the applying of these things lately on this thread. If I were still a member of my splinter group I would allow a twisted bastard with sociopathic characteristics to tell me who to hate. Wierwille did the same thing. Their judgements are written before hand in black and white for those of us who believe the scriptures and considering the issues I like how Geisha is handling them. For those of you who don't wish to consider how the scriptural, moral and/or ethical issues apply to TWI I certainly bear you no ill will.

DrWearWord, That's your best shot at the bible!? Your reasoning may be enough for you to think that you are wise (ala Rom ch. 1) but c'mon..... The lamps that existed at the time that the scriptures were written were not overpowered by the darkness. (A ref. to John 1) Everybody can see that and it is so simple that any child can understand it. No matter what you think of the bible it is a very simple and illistrative observation for anyone. You don't believe the bible and you are purposely obnoxious about it. I have nothing left to say to you. JEFF

For your sake DrWearWord I hope your muddy water causes you to grow and not just cloud your vision. JEFF

It seems to me that some of your questions are to broad to be answered with absolutes on my part. It seems to me that we both agree that honest ambiguity is better than deluded certainty. I understand that with your background that sexual roles and gender will be hard things to handle. But some of the things that you ponder just are not questions that are on my heart. But for someone with fundamentalist ideals that tends to want to believe that standards as they are written in the scripture a lot of your questioning only seems to muddy the water. You have the right to do that if you choose, but I'm speaking just for myself. As a fundamentalist, I believe that our flesh is bound to sin. If the things that you and I have done make us worthy of death in our flesh then you and I are in the same boat. That is where I find the unity between us that you mentioned in this thread's subtitle. In our flesh alone, WE ARE ALL WORTHY OF DEATH. And even if someone chooses not to believe in the clarity I find in that concept guess what: IN OUR FLESH ALONE WE WOULD ALL DIE. So who's going to disprove that point, it seems to me that it is beyond the ability of human power to disprove the concept. Ideologies come and go, wind of doctrine blow back and forth. Whether or not one chooses to hang their hat on the ideologies of Orthodoxy, Protestantism, or Gnosticism one event happens to us all, DEATH. I believe that the only deliverance from the malady of death is Jesus Christ, AS IT IS WRITTEN. But as concerning bringing things together in unity as YOU mentioned in this thread's title, Where do we go from here DrWearWord. For me the path seems clear and I would wish that it was clear for you too. But doubtlessly for both of us as we are still breathing the breath of life we have our own issues to work out. (added in editing) I'm out of time now, maybe later guys and gals.

But on the flip side, I'm certain that deluded certainty is worse than honest ambiguity. I choose to seek the Lord using his scriptures to the best of my understanding as my standard. I hope that those who do not chose to utilize the scriptures would at least acknowledge that a person could have worse standards and goals.

For me, this quickly brings to mind," Knowledge puffs up, but charity builds up."

RIGHT AND WRONG LOVE AND HATE SIN OR DOING GOOD PRAISE OR CONDEMNATION STANDING FIRM OR STIFF NECKED HOLDING THE TRUTH OR NARROW MINDED LIGHT OR DARKNESS IMO these things are always worth thinking about. But I believe that God will judge by his standards whether or not I ever understand. So I will continue to seek him and my Lord Jesus Christ. (ADDED IN EDITING) I'm just not in the habit of settling on believing that shades of grey or ambiguity is ever an answer. When I recognize myself thinking in terms of ambiguity I think that is just is an indication to me that I probably don't get it.

For me, this may fit into the "forgive myself" category, but it definitely is something that I consider. When I was a part of my splinter group I knew that much of the teaching was b.s.. Thinking back, I don't believe that I ever bought the twist on the "gathering together" doctrine that I was taught, but I wonder sometimes whether or not I was bold enough in fighting the lies that were being promoted all around me. Looking back, some things that I know now I was ignorant of then. Some things I held back on because my judgement was at the time that I should pick my fights wisely if I actually wanted to do people some good. Then on the other hand I wonder if I could have been bolder, maybe some of my former friends wouldn't be still caught up in my former splinter group's b.s.. I know first hand that if any of them resist that my former splinter group leader will manipulate everything that he can to make sure that anyone he decides to kick out is completely ruined before he lets them go. It's not easy to look at these things, but for today it seems good that I'm not swallowed up by doubt and sorrow.

Was there any part of "gladly" and "with all my might" that wasn't clear DrWearWord. When it is only academic it is irksome, but when is actually affecting people, well that's another story. Have you read many of my posts?

For me it is very simple. Mistakes whether from the dark ages or TWI have no direct bearing on my faith. What seems to be a stumbling block to you is at worst irksome to me. But these mistakes as they relate to people that I know I gladly reserve the right to withstand any pernicious religious doctrine with all my might. I do not fret over them academically speaking. It's like I said, it is only irksome to me. (added in editing) I would have answered you sooner, but I was taken off the computer without being able to log-off and have no more time now. JEFF

Dear DrWearWord, Oddly enough, or perhaps not, your arguments don't phase me. I still believe that you could find a much better certainty as to these things in the scriptures. You certainly have been burned by religious people too. The question about God knowing the intentions of our heart, what the heck does the differing nature of spirit and flesh have to do with God's knowledge. So GOD IS DIFFERENT AND HE KNOWS. What's so hard about getting that. I think I can understand why you see ambiguity, you either were taght it or you've chosen to see it, or maybe both IMO. The little that I know about gnosticism makes it for me a source that I will not rely on for showing me anything. But what the heck, if I hear a specific thing that they or anybody else said I will hear it out at least. I think that Martindale screwed up the garden of eden thing spectacularly in his reference to homosexuality, but I've heard enough to suspect that he might have secretely dug it when it was two women. Boy, he sure seems bent. Like I said before, I hope that you can work these things out, but even though I've listened to you, your arguments don't shake me either.

For me, one of the things that actually seems to help people is spelling out exactly what the promises are that concern the Lord taking vengence are. If someone trusts in the Lord, then I feel that may comfort them. Simply telling them that the spirit is the comforter may only lead them into feeling somehow worse if it is not followed up by something more substantial. In TWI the manifestations were taught as a way to receive comfort, but IMO people that were actually being led into actually speaking directly to the abusers and the abused were ruthlessly forced to shut up or get out. And IMO the manifestations became for the most part as worthless as lukewarm milk toast. BLECCHH This happened because stupid and wicked men were committed to continuing their wicked, corrupt and stinky actions and either fooled themselves or others into thinking they had the right to crush honest people ruthlessly. Yeah, I believe that the Lord will avenge these things with many stripes. But I was actually taught in my splinter group that they believe that Christ will raise up Wierwille the MOG and send Wierwille to gather together his spiritual children. The viewponit that I believed until I came here was I believe deluded and downright unscriptural because Wierwille DID THINGS that make it clear to me that he deserves the very worst of the Lord's revenge. These things may comfort the wounded IMO if they trust in the Lord like I do. (added in editing) The parts about the "Wierwille will gather us together for Christ" doctrine that my former splinter group taught is that from the beginning it was a hierarchtical thing. Wierwille was the MOG and my splinter group leader is of course the faithfull son of Wierwille. IMO he was just as twisted as Wierwille based on what I've heard at the Greasespot. Time's up, bye for now. Hi again! I was able to come right back after another spot opened up immediately. It just blows my mind how many of Wierwille's twisted methods a man can absorb if they worshipped Wierwille and turned AWAY FROM THE SCRIPTURES. I know that for many here the scriptures are not the answer, but I gotta go with it and call it like I see them. I hope that they know I'm not saying these things to put them down. Once I got here I recognized "All women belong to the king" as a reference to Wierwille Because the twisted bastard that runs my former splinter group holds this Wierwillian doctrine himself. That guy was very adept at figuratively castrating every other man in the group. When I wouldn't cave, he led my wife into hating me, and eventually moved her and my son out of my house behind my back. Their cover story for these events seem just as transparent to me as TWI propoganda does now. And that is just one similarity amoung many. You can tell me to forgive, but suffering through these things almost completely crushed me. The comfort I've received from the scriptures is that the Lord himself knows all their dishonest, twisted, vile, and destructive actions better than I do AND HATES THEM TOO!!! (edited for spelling too.)

Hi DrWearWord, I've been further considering your situation. Thinking back on your posts I remember a lot of ambiguity on your part. You mention ambiguity in yourself and the scriptures too. I guess that seems to be perfectly honest on your part and I get it. I would have the ambiguity you seem to be seeing be replaced with certainty. But furthermore, I wouldn't want it to be the kind of certainty that is just a delusion either. Many people present themselves as certain of things, but their real state of conscience is not so easily percieved. The Lord spoke of those who's eye's were full of light that was really darkness, "How great the darkness" in that case. And it is not easily dealt with if someone's concept of light is actually delusion. As an admitted fundamentalist I choose to believe thast certainty can be found in the scriptures. But futhermore I would have your perceptions of ambiguity replaced by certainty. I'm just glad that all of us are free to explore these things as a matter of conscience. Even though I wish that you would see things my way, I respect your right to consider your beliefs for yourself. If you wish to continue this discussion I will wait for your response. JEFF

I just listened to this link that my Uncle sent me. LOL right in the library..... I thought of all you mom's out there right away. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMhuAtyFCrw (added in editing) There, I just got it right. I present, "THE MOM SONG."

Hi Drwearword, I've still to read the book that waysider mentioned, but I plan on it. It seems to me that many of your questions runn very deep. It is also evident that you've seen much in life that are hard things to deal with. I have only ten or so minutes left, so unless my time is extended I may not get too far. For many of us ex-Wayfers we remember Wierwille and his chosen children using the "not under law but under grace" argument to justify a sickening progression of sin that seemed to culminated (In my mind anyway) by suicide amoung the women that they abused and men that were somehow related to these abused women. It is a valid thing to ponder, but for me nasty stuff is not ignored by grace but is in truth, only healed by grace and part of that (as in the case of TWI abuse) must be thought of as repulsive and vile. As a Christian who thinks that homosexuality is not good, for me the thing to note is all sin makes every one of us worthy of death. As a man who seeks to be justfied by Christ, for me to condemn you to hell would make me worthy of being condemned to hell (firy lake IMO) by the Lord for my sins that have made me worthy of death. I think that to examine Romans chs. one and two without realizing that homosexuality is just the example that Paul chose to use among the many death worthy sins in Old Testament law would tend to make me a self-righteous, judgemental jerk. I've warned my former splinter group of TWI about God's garbage fire as I like to put it because they excelled in hatred and the hatred that was deliberately directed at me was exactly the deluded and self righteous religiosity that Jesus Christ held his worst condemnations for. I usually read of him councelling love when his disciple's were about to try to call fire out of heaven when they were facing folks that did not believe on him. I think once he told his disciples that THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHICH SPIRIT THEY WERE OF. So while many of the things that you've seen and heard in your life seem hard to handle, I wish you only the best as you seek to come to terms with them. REALLY.....

One of the things that seemed to commonly happen was that if a person was a pretty young lady it was often a one way ticket strait to the most toxic core in order to be victimized. And also, as with Martindale it seems that if a man was charismatic and had a similar potential as Wierwille in terms of ability to be an abuser it was a short ride to the most rank, stinky, and damnable core. Hhhmm, let me see..... cleaver or chainsaw.....

I have to agree leafytwiglet, But as I said before, Dorian's situation is IMO just the tip of a nasty, stinky iceberg that is The Way International. I just hope that the answers makes it very, very clear for her what she is at the brink of in her situation. I would have a much harder time believing the truth of these types of things if I hadn't seen the damage insane leadership can do while building a ministry (so-called) in my little former splinter group. I hope that our sharings are adequate in terms of not buying TWI scriptural teaching mixed with the inevitable love-bombing she may receive if she goes to fellowship. PEACE, JEFF (edited for grammar)

For me, that's not what it took to get me in the class, but it sure hooked me afterwards. My all girl except for me twig was coordinated by a gal that lived with my female branch leader. Didn't have much to do with the branch leader but I did see the twig leader a little bit. (added in editing) I mean know matter what the specifics are in each case it stinks. Things like this should not happen in any ministry. But I'm fairly certain it's commonplace. It's just that TWI is the illness that I know.

Let me guess Cheranne, some personal experience behind this?

I don't know who these folks are Ham, but they shouldn't need to have family involved to be plenty steemed as they should be. For me, any reference to the "throw away" folks that TWI used then discarded gets me pretty steemed. #@$! &*^!

I've gotta go Ham, but I hear what you are saying. IMO if they cannot be truthful then they are still caught in the scum and muck. It is not even a difficult call for me if they ARE STILL LYING. DUUUHHH! (edited for spelling)

To make a long story short, unless leadership specifically sanctions shenanigans like these they have deniability even if they secretly knew things like this were going on. I am responsible for what I did, period. I believe Wierwille is responsible for what he did too. except with his position he is accountable for even more, he was responsible for how his scumbag life built a "culture" of fornication even if in specific instances they were done without his knowledge and his leadership kids have deniability in certain cases. (added in editing) Just so you know, I may have to leave at any time. I'll just follow up on this conversation when I can if I have to go.

The things I remember from the old days was that TWI had a "culture" that allowed women and men to use dating/sex to get people into the class. I got involved at first because I wanted to understand the bible and I signed up the class the very first night that I was witnessed to. The reason that I was witnessed to was (and I'm not kidding here) is because I went over to their house to warn them about some kids that I had just seen checking their basement windows for access to their house. They didn't even invite me in, I asked to come in when they said that they were studying the bible. I told them that I wanted the class before they even mentioned that it was available, they mentioned a class, I said that I want it, NOW. Leadership then moved me to a new twig. I was the only guy...... I was pretty much distracted from my real interest by several pretty distractions. They said God loved me and I got some make out time with some of them. I think the biblical term for me was at the very least a fool. My life as a new believer was soon a toxic mix of wanting to know the bible and chasing skirt. At the time I did not know that Wierwille was a sexual predator, but it does not surprise me at all to realise that TWI culture allowed dumbazz me to do the things that I did and still think that things were o.k. I WISH THAT I KNEW THEN WHAT I KNEW NOW..... Things went on like they are going on with Dorian's roomate without leadership sanction too, it happened to me. But it really messed up my life too.....

Hi Ham, I'm sorry if I seem a little slow, but even though I understand Dorian's situatiuon I do not understand the names that you reference or exactly what you are going for even though it's clear to me that you'de like to see Dorian's roomate get some help. It's just that I don't know exactly what you think is the right thing to do..... PEACE, JEFF

Since yesterday I've been thinking a little about what is commonly refered to as the massacre of the innocents. That was recorded as Herod killing all the male children less than two years old in the Bethlehem area. I think that if the villagers had the internet that there probably would exist a secular historical record to confirm it. Given TWI's efforts to quiet the truth, I think it to be very likely that Herod kept the lid on things, but that's another story..... Imagine well meaning but dumb Rabbis going to Bethlehem and insisting that parents with dead children were to forgive Herod. I think that if I were one of those parents I might have held back my emotions for a while but if they persisted in troubling my wife and friends I may have eventually given into my emotions and literally beat them out of town. It is definitely possible I think. I haven't been in a real physical altercation for almost thiry years, so I am not too prone to violence but under the circumstances of losing a child like that it could certainly happen. The record of Bethlehem states that they were not comforted in their loss too. But at least in that record I see a plain acknowledgement that for those who've been wounded that COMFORT IS THE NEED. I think it is the same for many of us who lost our life's direction, families, friends, friend's or family's lives even, innocence or any other such things too. Especially when the man in charge of TWI and his more recently ruling children seem to be such scumbags. Dear Mike, Other scripture's have come to mind for me. To be honest the list of wickedness at TWI is so grievous that it may be a shorter list to find the problems that did not apply.....