JeffSjo

Sniffle, sniffle, smile

For all the claims that Wierwille made about watching out for "that other Jesus" it seems that Wierwille was the worst offender that I know of in this category. According to the Lynn letters Wierwille pumped his own juices up with a constant series of sexual encounters that fill the range betwween adultery and sexual abuse like some kind of fertiltiy god's right might use except that Wierwille's actions were worse than that because they were done in JESUS' name. The Jesus of the bible had nothing to do with these things, but apparently the Jesus of the gnostic gospels did. WIERWILLE SERVED ANOTHER JESUS! (ADDED IN EDITING) As a matter of opinion I wonder if the thinking behind the many, many sexually abusive groups throughout history might have included a version of the gnostic jesus into their doctrine to justify their twisted doctrines.

I think that I get why this appeals to you Ham....... ;) (added in editing) I cannot look at the picture without smiling. My time is up today, but I've been coming back over and over just to feel the near-involuntary smile reflex go accross my face.

Hi Bolshevik, It seems to me that the threat of legal actions from TWI makes PAW'S policy of anonymity all the more viable and needful and I am thankful for it. Instead of "Rev. Buttwad" I will refer to this hypothetical person or persons you refer to as "the abused." Now if the abused needs therapy I would hope that, legally speaking, the confidentiality clauses that TWI forced upon the abused would be sent through a shredder by any reasonable legal system. Maybe the abused could benefit by Greasespot sharings without any posting at all on the part of the abused. If the abused shared anything with me or others more privately I'm certain that many of the greasespotters would be wise enough to protect the abused's anonymity and call TWI to task if the door opens to be able to do both. To quote Wierwille, TWI "can kiss my righteous foot." (The automated censor switched my posterior reference to the less obnoxious "foot."

Refering back to my first post I shared that there was one verse that I was thinking of, but did not know where it was. Psalm 91:14 Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him. I will set him on high because he hath known My name. This verse is immediately after the prophecies of the Messiah that the devil tempted Jesus with by telling him the God had promised to take care of him. It is clear to me that this verse is refering to Jesus of Nazareth also. I also find this to be entirely consistent with Paul's thinking about living for the Lord as an unmarried believer. He shared that when a person is married they are to care for the other, and not just serve God. It seems certain and consistent with every scripture that I can recall that the Lord Jesus did not have a mate, and if he did it would mean that the Lord didn't keep the scriptures, that he didn't practice what he preached, or there is something else vastly wrong with the scripture records. But I see it as consistent and convincing to be sure that the Lord did not have the kind of relationship with mary Magdalene that many imagine. I can't help but wonder how many of these "other Jesus's" that are preached of might have served to help Wierwille justify his actions in the eyes of others.

Thanks Cheranne, That seemed just as poigniant as your Christmas Card to them.

Just like mixing amphetamines with A.D.D.

There have been a few times when the guest list jumped up to over a thousand all of the sudden. Once I hastily went through the forum pages to see where they all were and could not find them in the forums. I didn't know that google's work schedule could effect the list. I liked the idea of some larger group talking in a private forum even though I might have given them the "puppydog looking through the window eyes" if I could have.

I am glad that there has been some action on this thread. I was hoping that it provoked some conversation and I'm glad to see that it did. I am hoping that for TWI victims who still believe in Jesus that it helps them to see that the Jesus of the bible stories is not the same as the abusive sociopath that Wierwille was. Even though Wierwille spoke enough about loving God to snooker me into thinking that he was the real deal his actions were vile, unbiblical, and despicable. It seems plain to me that when the Jesus of the bible stories pays Wierwille back that his reward will be very, VERY UNPLEASANT. Dear Oakspear and Bramble, This is what I like about you two, you both seem to be exactly what you say that you are. Lying two-bit, scum-sucking perverts like Wierwille give God, love, and humanity a bad name. Dear Geisha, I've been thinking a lot about some of the things in this thread. First off, whether or not someone believes the bible stories to be true seems paramount. It seems to me that if someone does not believe the bible stories that it is inevitable that they would try to figure out what the truth is, this IMO is human nature. I desire to see them as true, and that is a lot harder to do honestly than to discount them out of hand. I think there may be some people at the Greasespot that were so wounded by TWI actions that they have a hard time seeing truth and purity when and where it exists because they were taught truth by a sociopathic predator. Even if they may tend to project their experiences into the relationship of Jesus and Mary Magdalene I find it very easy to be patient and kind with them. If people speculate about the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene without anything solid to base their speculation on I think that it reveals more about themselves than anything else. It's just that if they also happen to be in a teaching position that they will end up fulfilling one of the scriptures in that you will know them by their fruit. Dear Wordwolf, I think that is always interesting to consider WHAT IF one record refers to the same individual as another record, but find it wise to not say for sure. A teacher who makes such unsubstantiated claims surely isn't as wise as they think they are IMO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought that these non-biblical pictures of Jesus and Mary Magdalene's relationship might be some combination of gnostic gospel and foolish speculation but I wanted to see where this thread went first. Since the gnostic story line seems to flatly contradict the bible records it seems obvious to me that they cannot both be true. I choose to throw the gnostic story line into the garbage file in my thinking! Especially as the gnostic story line would force me to seem to accept some kind of bad and/or foolish motives on Jesus and Mary M.'s part. (added in editing) This is one of the things that I ALWAYS CONSIDER WHEN A TEACHER IS TALKING ABOUT A BIBLICAL CHARACTER. What would it look like if this teacher tried to say it to the face of the biblical character. One possible scenario....... 1. Someone tells Mary M. that Jesus kept her as some kind of concubine. 2. Mary M. gets VERY, VERY OFFENDED. 3. Jesus hears that Mary is very, VERY OFFENDED and gets worked up about it. After all, didn't Paul say that he would burn when the believers were offended. 4. The foolish big mouth that told it to her in the first place might pee his pants and have a change of heart.

I DON'T EXPECT ANYONE TO ANSWER THIS, BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND THINKING THAT THE GREASESPOT'S PLACE IN MY LIFE MAY BE NO LONGER VIABLE SOMEDAY. BUT WHO CAN POSSIBLY THINK THAT IS NO LONGER VIABLE FOR ANYONE ELSE?

Who says that Mary Magdalene was young and attractive anyway? Nowhere in the bible does this topic come up that I'm aware of. The only things that I'm certain of have to do with her character. But when folks tell lies about Jesus I usually call to mind that Jesus said that there was forgiveness for speaking ill of him and that helps me be patient with them. But I'm thinking that it's much more likely that Mary Magdalene would be violently opposed to people shooting their stupid mouths off about what they think the Lord Jesus Christ did to her. Jesus Christ knew about his betrayal and crucifiction from the very beginning of his ministry. If he committed to a marriage knowing that I would tend to think less of him, but nowhere in the scriptures is anything written about him that in my mind doesn't speak to the very, very best of the human condition. It was spoken to his mother that sorrows would pierce her heart, and she had to watch what they did to him and then have him go to the father. Mary Magdalene did not have to deal with her mate leaving when the Lord said he was going to the father because the Lord was the one who set what marriage was and it would be cruel and hypocritcal if he was to put Mary Magdalene in the position of saying goodbye to her husband and the father of her child and/or children. SO, IS THERE ANY BASIS TO THESE OTHER IDEAS OF JESUS' AND MARY MAGDALENE'S RELATIONSHIP THAT ISN'T UNFOUNDED AND OFF BASE?

There has been a lot of discussion in recent years about the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene, not just here of course but even on television. For me the issue of the truth of their relationship easily ties into many other relavent issues, most involving the proper relationship between a minister and the ministered. Not to mention the pink elephant of this discussion IMO: what kind of man was Jesus Christ? It was prophecied before hand of Jesus that his love would be to do the Father's will, I mean 100%. I couldn't find this reference but I know that it is there. I'm putting this first because I'm betting that any number of you could find this one easily and even I can find it later and post it. Many years ago I read this verse and took it to mean that Jesus probably knew from the scriptures that there would be no mate for him: Eccl 7:28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man amoung a thousand have I found; but a woman among all these have I not found. Jesus himself said: MT 19:11,12 But He said unto them,"All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunochs, who were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunochs, which were made eunochs of men: and there be eunochs which have made themselves for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. The Lord said of himself that he was meek and gentle and look at this, He talked about hard things without forcing anything down anyones throat. HE'S CERTAINLY MY "ONE AMONG A THOUSAND." Wasn't he the one who railed at those who bound heavy burdens on people without lifting even one of there own fingers!? Didn't THE APOSTLE PAUL practised what he preached when he talked to the Corinthians about the virtues of being single yet tell men that it was better marry than to burn. Paul did not require a vow of chastity but IT CLEARLY WAS GIVEN HIM TO LIVE THE LORD'S SAYING FOR HIMSELF. ___________________________________________________________________________ Luke 8:2 mentions that the Lord had cast seven devils out of Mary Magdalene. Luke 8:3 and Mark 15:40,41 says that Mary Magdalene was numbered among a group of women that followed the Lord and ministered to HIM out of their substance. (IMO this must have been awsomely loving as the Lord once spoke of himself that he had no place to lay his head.) She was there at his crucifiction. John 19:25 says that she was there when the Lord gave the care of his mother to another while still hanging on the cross. MT 27:61 says that she was there watching when Joseph put the Lord's dead body into the tomb. Mark 16:9,10 says the Lord first appeared to her in his resurrected body and that she told this to the other disciples while they were still weeping and mourning his death. __________________________________________________________________ In John 14:28 Jesus told the disciples, "If you loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my father is greater than I" BUT... In John 20:17 Jesus told Mary," but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God. (I am not a betting man per se, but nobody will ever convince me that when the Lord told her this that she did not rejoiced in it; because she loved the Lord as did his other disciples.) (Picturing this meeting in my little brain has long been one of my favorite things to consider in the scriptures.) ________________________________________________________________________ So where did all the talk of Jesus and Mary having children together come from? I'm saying that it did not come from the scriptures. Paul encouraged Timothy to treat the younger women with purity. I'm saying that the Lord did so to Mary. I'm saying that if the Lord had children with Mary that he would have broken the scripture, BUT HE DID NOT BREAK THE SCRIPTURES, HE DID AND WILL FULLFILL THEM!!! I'm saying that how Wierwille treated the young women was vile and that the Lord did it right. I think that the men who made up these lies about Jesus and Mary were just as corrupt as Wierwille was when he twisted the scriptures to justify his twisted lusts in the mind of TWI disciples. P.S. I decided to not try to fit all the gospel scriptures into sequence, I don't think that anyone needs to do a harmony of the gospels to handle Jesus and Mary Magdalene's relationship. (Edited for spelling)

On one level I feel for v2p2, if my grandfather had done the things that vp had done, I'm not sure how if I'd be able to handle it. But as a minister IMO HE HAS TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT WITHOUT RESPECT OF PERSONS IMO. Good grief, I haven't heard a single thing that even comes close to indicating that he is even in the right zip code as concerning his ability to handle his grandpa's legacy in the ministry. I guess on a personal level I feel sorry for him.

I think a fatal flaw in human nature that to try to discern spirits is much easier when looking at others than to apply our own remedy liberally to our own perceptions. In my splinter group leadership gladly portrayed me to be a devilish man behind my back while the supposed revelation that my splinter group leader shared proved to be lies and IMO often stupid when looked at in the light of day, but because of a clearly TWI method of crowd control and manipulation my views were rejected and I was kicked out. I don't even like boasting that IMO I was right. I willingly share that my conscience is clear but still have to admit that the LORD is my judge, not my conscience. Now as I look back at Wierwille knowing better the kind of man he was behind closed doors it seems real easy to see that he had absolutely no business teaching about receiving revelation or how to build a ministry. The leaven of hypocrisy that lived in his own life corrupted the whole lump of TWI as far as much of anything good goes. The only conclusions that I consider to be valid now is that he either lied about the whole thing or that he turned to do evil just as quickly as others in the scriptures who did so right after hearing from God. The only reason that I don't go farther than that in my assessment is because I prefer to wait for the Lord to reveal the whole picture in HIS own time. But for those who don't want to wait until that day I usually say something like," I hear you!" (added in editing) Besides, my position still leaves me open to learn more specifics. Usually a good idea IMO. Heck, I'm only an intermediate class grad after all. ;)

Dear Rightsideup, In my case, I was really, REALLY hoping that my former splinter group leadership would have to stand before a judge to be accountable for their words and actions but that wasn't needed as far as taking care of my boy goes. When my splinter group leadership faces their ultimate judge lies and spin will be pointless IMO. But even though they didn't want their words and actions exposed in court case in my instance I was privately hoping that they'd underestimate my willingness to expose them for what they were. Personally speaking, I found needing to keep my child's best interest ahead of my desire for justice the best path to tread on. PEACE, JEFF It sounds to me like you love your children, I wish you all the best.

MWAAA, HA HA HA HA ;)

Dear Rightsideup, (I like the irony in your avatar name, hehehe) I don't have any legitimate help for you except to say get the best lawyer that you can. It sounds like the situation is good for you as far as having to be in a custody battle goes, but a good lawyer will be invaluable in terms of keeping legal shenanigans from the other side managed. In the mean time let me say that I don't think that you'll be lacking for moral support and prayers here at the Greasespot. JEFF (added in editing) My divorce and custody situation was much different than yours, I think that's why I can't help you with your specific request for help. But I don't think any divorce and custody case is easy. I'm hoping for the best for you.

One more little itty bitty thing..... PAW, I'm very, very glad for the stand that you take on the anonymity issue. Personally, as a non-anonymous poster I am espescially irked by anonymous posters who are against the choice for anonymous posting amoung TWI victims. IMO they have a real big friggin blind spot in regards to practicing what they preach. So who are you anyway..... Hypocritical posers IMO.

Thank you both! This is my first holiday season without my grandpa, but I'm certain that for my mom and his other children that it is much harder on them. And as far as my laugh goes, people have told me at times that it is similar to my mom's laugh, often times I hear that right along with an exhortation to laugh a little quieter. If I could at all be truly a legacy for any of my grandparents and their many good points I would be content with this life I think.

Dear Nottawayfer, I'm really glad for your happy ending, just hearing it gets me to consider possibilities for my future even yet. Dear Dot, Thank you for starting this thread, a lot of the sharings hit close to home for me in a real good way.

Dear jrglade, For what it's worth to you sometimes I'm a little amazed that I desire to see the truth of my experiences and hold on to the scriptures..... but I really do see the validity of your perspective and see your post as good and powerful as well. JEFF

Dear Paw, Yesterday is the first time that I read this thread. While many good people have shared many good things I feel obliged to say a few things just for myself. I arrived at the Greasespot a little over a year ago. 1982, the fortieth anniversary Sunday of the Way International was my fist twig fellowship. For the next three years I was involved with TWI and a WOW ambassador and left when the things that I heard from top leadership of TWI were very discouraging, and my own personal challenges were daunting also. In 1987 I came back to the St. Paul Minnesota Twig area with the woman who I would marry shortly after I came back to TWI. After TWI broke up around those times I was involved in a splinter group in Minnesota. Over the next fifteen years I saw what I come to see now as the VERY WORST OF TWI LEADERSHIP PRACTICES, except at least abusive sexual relationships with the top dog wasn't an issue as far as I know. But since my former splinter group leader is both paranoid and secretive, I can't know for sure. I'm still working to come to terms with these things in a manner that keeps me both honest with the scriptures and honest enough to hear everyone else's perspective also. I WANT YOU TO KNOW PAW, THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE SACRIFICED TO KEEP THE GREASESPOT OPEN YOU ALWAYS WILL HAVE MY THANKS NO MATTER WHAT YOU DECIDE TO DO. I am not aware of any other place where I might have heard the ugly realities of what TWI was at it's core that would have helped me make some sense of the wreck that my life is in many respects. Thank you most of all I think for the many TWI victims who've been allowed to share here at the Greasespot and not had to be subjected to misguided and heartless cross-examination, especially as my splinter group has shown me how ruthless that TWI leadership surely was in it's suppression of the truth of their many abusive ways. And in my mind the many archives with stories that are able to be verified make the need for a place for those whose stories cannot be verified to find friendship and/ or support A MOST VITAL NEED THAT YOU'VE PROVIDED AT THE GREASPOT. Once again I gladly offer my most sincere thank you PAW. (edited for clarity and grammar)

:o :ph34r:

Merry Christmas Way international........ bastards. I mean the leadership who know that they lie, cover-up the truth and deceive decent folks for money sake. (edited for clarity)