JeffSjo

In terms of Wierwille's words that reminds me Waysider..... It was common knowledge in TWI in the early eighties that Wierwille liked drambuie. Then I heard him say in a taped sharing from Great Britain that he was allergic to alcohol. The recording was made just before his passing. W. T. F. People that have alcohol allergies should not have a favorite liquer. Unless they are an alcoholic making a predictable excuse. I'm certain that anyone who has been exposed to A.A. will see his supposed "allergy" for what it really was. To tell you the truth, it is a lot easier to reject everything Wierwille said once I started putting these things together. In spite of that, I still hold to the scriptures, even if Wierwille happened to get it right. (edited for clarity)

Wierwille taught in "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" as edited by Geer that he thought that if Bathshebah had pled for her and Solomon's life by reminding David of the rape that David would have said,"Get out of here woman." My heart hurts for how the abused in TWI felt when they read that. Wierwille wrote that in the chapter entitled, "THE FINAL CHAPTER." I'm saying this to you right now WD. Wierwille's crushing dogma will not be the final chapter. I'm speaking my thoughts today. The Lord will have his say concerning those like Wierwille who've turned the Grace of God into unrestrained lust..... IT IS WRITTEN. For those here who do not believe the scriptures, I am most happy to add my voice to their's when it comes to condemning Wierwille's actions. (added in editing) Moonwaling bear? Feel free to explain that one to me, please. P.m. or e-mail would be fine.

Dear Watered Garden, I am very glad that the definition worked for you. I hope it helps. I wasn't going to say anything, but I'd like to say that how I defined it did not require a concordance. I've seen both sides of the sorrow issue because of my mistakes.

for me a lot of PFAL is something that I hold on to. I really like a lot of what E.W. Bullinger taught too, but IMO the dispensationalism that Wierwille took from him and others only served to help Wierwille hide behind the doctrines that he taught. After all, what Wierwille snookered folks into thinking was ministering to young women was openly condemned by the Lord in the gospels. So Wierwille used dispensationalism to hide his own perversions and managed to hash the Word to pieces while convincing folks that he had put together the Word as it had not been known since the first century. Of course I also remember the impression that Wierwille seemed to get kind of a twisted pleasure out of thinking that he did what Bullinger did, but did it better. There seemed to be some kind of strife in his heart when it came to the ones that he learned from. Yeah, I hold to PFAL, but have continued to prove the doctrine like PFAL taught me to do. I have found that much of it was wrong. For me, my journey in the scriptures began in PFAL and that is what compells me to consider Wierwille a viscious predator. (edited for spelling, a little added too)

1. Number of women that he abused. 2. Number of times that he quoted other teachers without giving them due credit. 3. Number of people that he crushed for not fawning at his feet. :ph34r:

1 Co 5:11, (Lamsa version) Now what I have written to you is this: you are not to associate with any person who is known as a brother and yet is immoral or fraudulent or an idolater...... GEE MIKE, IF ONLY HE HAD ADDED THIS ONE VERSE AND NOT LIED ABOUT HIS OWN HABITS, THEN MAYBE I'D GIVE HIM A LITTLE CREDIT. But as things went, it looks to me like Wierwille might get your praise but he won't get any from the Lord.

Pretty heartbreaking stuff there Skyrider. Just this morning I was wondering why it is that I still want to see a fellowship that was full of all the good things when it seems plain to me that so many people who were hoping for good things were so brutally deceived by Wierwille. I remember fighting for good things in my splinter group for a long time until it became clear to me that the leader was corrupt and deceptive. It may be unrealistic. But I'm still looking for those good things that are true. Maybe I won't see them until I see the Lord himself. SIGH....

Hi guys, In case I haven't been clear already, I prefer to stay away from the original question of this thread in this one respect: I am not going to touch on anything God did or didn't do and claim that I know FOR SURE. But this one thing I've faced in my splinter group and I am certain that Wierwille did the same thing. Wierwille stole people's teachings and then took all the credit. He did what Paul chided the Corinthians for doing. He gloried like the teachings came from him, when in fact he took them. The fact that in certain circumstances he gave lip-service to having collected various teachings is far outweighed by the well known fact that he later put down everybody that was the source of his teachings. I remember that he called Lamsa and Oral Roberts sell-outs. But a lot of his teaching on the Aramaic he took from Lamsa, and the Red Thread he took from Roberts. I guess if the stories of his little tantrums when folks didn't give him the glory are false that is one thing. But I remember his little tantrums being presented as his attempt to teach people how to give glory to God by leadership that believed Wierwille and were thinking that they were presenting the truth to me back in the day. According to Wierwillian theology, Wierwille had the right to totally trash his scources but made people honor him exactly like many tin-pot dictators and cult-of-personality figureheads have done. As far as the supposed quality of his bible teachings go, they were ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT.... that is if anybody had to construct a theology that totally insulated a pervert like Wierwille from any of the criticism that his actions deserved while simultaneously ensuring the adoration of the ignorant faithful.

I just watched a show on public television this weekend about Jesus and Mary Magdalene. The promo to the show in the viewing guide promised to explore modern theories about Mary Magdalene. It was clear to me that much of the debate about Mary Magdalene in modern times doesn't really have anything to do with Mary Magdalene at all, but it has more to do with theologians' views of the role of women in the church. Both sides seemed more than willing to add their own SPECULATION to the scriptures and tended to view the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene in the manner that most backed up their own personal views on the role of women in the church. SIGH........ It seems that folks have been willing to add to the scriptures according to their own mind for a long, long time also. I have to put the Gnostic gospels into this category because as I've stated before, I believe that in order for the SCRIPTURAL CALLING OF JESUS CHRIST TO BE TRUE HE COULD NOT HAVE HAD A MATE. As far as the many paintings of Mary over the centuries that focus on her in varying degrees of nakedness it is very, very evident to me that the painters' own imaginations were at work. They obviously didn't give a fig about the Jewish cultural norms of the first century. It seems 100% probable to me that Mary herself would be absolutely scandalized by the painters' insistence to show so much skin. Even if the painters themselves were not directly influenced by the Gnostic storyline, it seems evident that they were willing to go there all by themselves.

As far as Godly sorrow verses worldly sorrow I think that the scriptural definition is simple in concept. But like most simple things, actually carrying them out can be difficult. Espescially if we are already damaged goods so to speak. If I'm feeling guilty about something that I've done wrong I can go one of two diections IMO. If I go the route of feeling sorry for myself and then feel like giving up that would tend to be worldly sorrow. If I'm beAting myself up so badly that I start thinking about suicide and/or death being better than having to deal with my guilt then IT IS WORLDLY SORROW. If I'm crushed by my guilt but manage to get back up on my feet, do better, and learn my lesson and fight to change while thanking God for his mercy, well, THAT IS GODLY SORROW. one more itty little bitty thing..... If I make for myself a habit of sexual, and ministerial abuse over the course of years and simultaneously lead people into thinking that I'm a man-of-god, well,MY NAME MIGHT BE WIERWILLE. (I'm thinking seared conscience) I THINK FRIENDS HELP WITH THESE THINGS!!!!!

Dear Kimberly, I'm really glad that your friend had it in her heart to handle the situation with so much class.

Hi Watered Garden, I'm really sorry about the things that you suffered through and still affect you. I usually refer to these things as bruises and/or wounds figuratively speaking. For me things in my marraige things were tough. I was not ready to be a husband in almost any manner at all. The fact that I didn't commit the abuses that I grew up around wasn't enough to keep me from having huge faults and being a big jerk sometimes. Even in the best of circumstances with a competant minister things would not have been easy for us. Enter my splinter group and their theology..... While fighting for things to be better in my marriage I had to contend with my splinter group leader along with his toadies and goons. Their faults were abundant in the false prophecy category. Glorification of the leader was the norm. They even called him by the phrase "the Word in the Flesh." Obedience by abuse went hand in hand with flattery. Whichever worked was the method used to bring about obedience. All women belong to the king was the norm. Except they usually used phrases as "shepherd" and "Sheep" to communicate the same idea. Since I was in disagreement with much of the doctrine and I had challenges in my marriage they were capable of turning my wife against me and she was a willing participant in the multitude of mind games they threw at me over the course of a few years. ___________ I'm sharing these things so that you may see where I'm coming from when I say this..... You and your family were battered by TWI abuse. A lot of what TWI screws up for people is what should be simple; the concepts behind right, wrong, and Godly sorrow. After being battered for a while with heartless abuse it takes some time for all of us to see these things straight I think. Much of you what you were battered with in terms of you being wrong was B.S. And now you sound wounded to me. I hope you continue to sort it out. I've read enough of your posts to feel confident that you will sort it out better than you seem to think you will right now....I'm just saying. PEACE, JEFF (edited for clarity) (added in editing) If you feel guilty about being a woman, that is not right. If someone feels guilty about commiting a crime, that is probably right.

I remember in my former splinter group that this record was used to warn us off of any thinking that would tend to cause us to consider the negatives concerning Wierwille's life. As if exposing Wierwille's sin was comparable to uncovering Noah's nakedness. I compared that with the Lord's warning to Laodicea in Rev. 3:18 about their nakedness being seen and thought that as far as nakedness being seen and the associated shame that the world needed to see my splinter group's twisted doctrines more than the splinter group leader wanted to hide under his rock while falsely claiming the Lord's blessing and sanction. In our splinter group the leader expected the same treatment as how he taught us to treat Wierwille and any attempt to expose his fear, his bitterness at his wife, his self-glorification, or his twisted handling of scripture would be met by being "cursed" just like those folks who expose Wierwille for what he's been accused of. Rank and priviledge have their benefits in the kingdom of heaven for these turds folks. But when I compare how openly and honestly Paul handles them man who slept with his father's wife in Corinth it makes it clear that Wiewillian immorality is not to be sanctioned in the church in any way, form, shape, or manner. (1Co 5:8) We were never even suppose to fellowship with a man who did what Wierwille did ( 1Co 5:9-13), let alone honor him as a master and teacher. Wiertwille corrupted himself and the whole loaf of TWI by his leaven. As I've been considering this record of Corinth I've been thinking that how Paul handled his own life and these issues in the church must have been like a ice-cold bucket of water in the face of the believers because of the "anything goes" Corinthian culture the believers came from. This is why the straight-forward manner in which WordWolf handled the scripture in question helps me. The issue with Ham and Canaan had to do with sexual immorality, not dishonoring leadership. (edited for clarity) (added in editing) The one thing that I feel pretty good about the nakedness thing as it's used is that shame seems to be at the center of it. Now whether or not feeling shame in a given situation is right or just the product of abuse is key to how it works for folks I guess.

Thanks for sharing PAW. I am very glad that for now the forums will continue to be open.

Me too WW, even though I didn't ask the question. The simplicity of the "uncovering of his nakedness" phrase is very straightforward. (added in editing) IMO it may be profitable to note how excuses of needing to satisfied would have not changed a darn thing for HAM.

It seems to me that by Jesus own words He will remember and avenge how his disciples are treated. In my splinter group one fatal error among many in terms of being prepared for the Lord's judgment is thinking that they were qualified to execute judgment in the Lord's name while the leader had his head so far up his you-know-what due to twisted TWI teachings and his own form or forms of insanity that he himself only compounded the inevitable result of his own problems by forcing his insane dogma upon others. Jesus and Mary Magdalene IMO is an example of simplicity, respect, and pure love between a teacher and a disciple. I can't help but consider how much joy they will have when they can see each other face to face again like the bible says will happen some day. Jesus delivered her and she supported Jesus out of her own substance and was there for Him and his family throughout the very, very worst of times. EXCELLENT, PURE, AND NOTEWORTHY IS THEIR RELATIONSHIP. I don't really care if Wierwille screwed up his own ministry BECAUSE of gnostic thinking or simply because he was a pervert. Either way in filling his own twisted belly on young ladies flesh he will deserve the thrashing (at least) that is due him.

I've beeen considering the verses where the Lord tells his disciples to not pray in the manner of the Pharisees and Saducees just to receive their reward from people. Instead He tells them to go into the closet and to not let their one hand know what the other is doing. He says that the end result of doing it this way is that God would reward them openly. I've also seen the "I'll pray for you" line used as some kind of passive-aggressive attempt to hold onto the upper-hand or moral high ground in certain conversations. I've read of a case (Foxe's Book of Martyrs) where the speaker was facing death for speaking, and infurated the judges by telling them he would pray for them because they were going to be held accountable by the Lord Jesus Christ for what they were doing to him. It seems to me that in that case the judges were probably most infuriated by speaker's lack of fear and honest concern, when they wanted the speaker to crumble and recant. In the case I'm recalling the speaker was put to death in a cruel fashion. I THINK THAT IN CASES WHERE THE PERCEPTION IS THAT THE "I'LL PRAY FOR YOU" LINE IS HIGH-HANDED OR PASSIVE AGGRESIVE THAT THE "JUST" REWARD FROM PEOPLE THAT THE SPEAKER RECEIVES IS THAT THE SPEAKER WILL END UP BEING DESPISED. Let your words be salted and seek to edify the hearers of your sayings! Or perhaps this one, Don't let your goodness be ill-spoken of! (edited for spelling, grammar, and a little added for clarity)

Thank Leafy..., :D And here I was thinking that ignorantly linking bot with robot would sound stupid!

Well just keep looking for your own good, I guess. I don't know anything about your girlfriend at all, but a lot of people have had a very wide range of experiences with the Way International here at the Greasespot. I hope that you find the things that help you without going into the "too much information" category.

Dear Bramble, I never heard the movie or read anything that would tie into the Davinci code-book that you mentioned in post #5. But I do recall hearing somewhere that the movie that I think goes along with it have some tie in to TWI. Even though I always thought that any ties between TWI and Gnosticism seemed odd before now, it certainly seems to make sense now. Institutional perversity and all. It seems to me that TWI wasn't just abusive to women, it was abusive to all of it's members in different ways as their position required. But I'll go along with what you have said also. The abuse was equal opportunity at least. <_< (added in editing) Kind of off track with my own thread..... but I think it is a fair observation that in any hierarchtical and abusive group the ones that are at the bottom of the hierarchy seem to get the worst of the abuse.

O...M...G... It's not that I don't have concerns for you, it's just that I have no freakin idea where to start!

Decades!? I'm not splitting hairs with you at all now I see, I'm certain that you are correct when you say that these TWI scare tactics have been in use that long. It's just that I've only been aware of them for about a year. I am not quick to guess whether or not a person is just voicing their concerns or actually deliberately using a scare tactic because I really don't care to speculate about an individual's motivation. Either way the detrimental effect of these scare tactics would have on the scared folks who would otherwise post seem obvious. As a matter of fact these scare tactics here at the Greasespot have seemed transparently obvious to me in my short time here. (added in editing) Not to get too far off track, but it has been the bullying that has been espescially irksome. It sounds like PAW has understandably wearied by the more-or-less constant beating the bullies throw at him.

What is a bot?

This one thing I'm certain of. The stories of the revelations, phenomenon, and miracles served to bring people into TWI that really were looking for God to be real for them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm fairly darn certain that Wierwille used these stories to weed out people who were not likely to fall for his twisted and dangerous doctrines. If anyone appeared to actually seriously consider whether or not these things were true I'm fairly certain that they would be given the bum's rush out the door as far as being anything other than being a simple bystander in TWI history. The fact that these stories were put on par with believing the bible in TWI doctrine and practice really tees me off. Like many other religious groups, proving things only applied to major problems outside of the fold. (edited for clarity)